All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
That clip even throws out my generous assessment that there would have been unavoidable contact anyway. If he doesn't reach and gather the ball it goes right past him
The more I look at that clip, the more I think it was not a knock-forward. The ball goes backward or level to Williams since he is falling backwards anyway. And from that clip, it looks like the ball came off Williams face but I suspect there are some frames missing due to the frame rate grab.
I don't disagree that there is a possibility that if you super slo-mo the action it may prove that other things happened. I also agree that it is actually difficult to tell with moving players whether the ball travelled forward.
however, that has nothing at all to do with the decision made. All of the team of four agreed that there was a knock on by red AND that there was no clear and obvious touch by black AND that it was a fair contest in the air AND that the next player to touch the ball was in an offside position.The only difference was that the AR in the worst position to see what happened then intervened and convinced the ref that it was accidental and therefore only a scrum.
After deliberate and clear consultation originally Poite then hastily changed his call. That wasn't being brave it was second guessing himself and letting one ref overrule three. The correct thing to do would have been to ask for one more replay to check whether it was accidental or not and rule accordingly
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
That clip even throws out my generous assessment that there would have been unavoidable contact anyway. If he doesn't reach and gather the ball it goes right past him
The more I look at that clip, the more I think it was not a knock-forward. The ball goes backward or level to Williams since he is falling backwards anyway. And from that clip, it looks like the ball came off Williams face but I suspect there are some frames missing due to the frame rate grab.
I don't disagree that there is a possibility that if you super slo-mo the action it may prove that other things happened. I also agree that it is actually difficult to tell with moving players whether the ball travelled forward.
however, that has nothing at all to do with the decision made. All of the team of four agreed that there was a knock on by red AND that there was no clear and obvious touch by black AND that it was a fair contest in the air AND that the next player to touch the ball was in an offside position.The only difference was that the AR in the worst position to see what happened then intervened and convinced the ref that it was accidental and therefore only a scrum.
After deliberate and clear consultation originally Poite then hastily changed his call. That wasn't being brave it was second guessing himself and letting one ref overrule three. The correct thing to do would have been to ask for one more replay to check whether it was accidental or not and rule accordingly
Yep. I'm in complete agreement with all of that, except the brave comment. If the penalty had been awarded, I believe there'd be less clamour and outrage than has occurred.
Lastly, I can't see how Poite and Garces should escape censure of some sort for failing to do exactly what you've outlined although a little bit of me suspects that Poite didn't know/forgot the AO sanction - and he's never going to admit that publicly.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
In other words, the officials thought it was an unavoidable/accidental offside and believed that a penalty was the correct sanction. Garces then intervenes and says the correct sanction is a scrum to black.
You'd have to be Helen Keller to think Owens has been accidentally hit by the ball here; he reaches for the fucking thing:
Even if you use braille it still spells out "caught it"
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Joubert copped it in the north too for his handling of the 2011 WC final , still see that brought up on social media even now from time to time ,
Should have too. His bias against the All Blacks damn near cost us the game.
I've said it before KinMelb after the shit storm I watched it again too. I tried desparately to keep both eyes open and park my bias. And I nerded it and recorded decision and non decisions I think he got wrong.
It was horribly in favour of France. Something like 21-8 (including scrum decisions, penalties and free kicks 14-7 or so). I did not have lines and arrows or post it to G&GR.
None of these were horribly Barnesesque and most weren't points scoring (apart from the kickable penalty when the entire Frog forward pack were inside the 10m which would have made it 11-7) and my point is merely to try and dispel the propaganda about Joubert rather than criticise him.
But it's been said so often All Black haters (and some "fans") believe it.
It popped up tbe other night on The Back Page on Fox Sport. Rugby's only mention was 'le decision' in the 3rd test.
Panelist and cokehead Wendell Sailor's contribution was along the lines that it made up for NZ getting all the hometown decisions like they did in the 2011 RWCF. Fuck.
... sorry Pavlovian canine moment there at the mention of Joubert and 2011 ...
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@booboo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
off-escalope.
I had to google that
You made me try and figure it out. The Hutt side of my brain hurts.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
yep, this (i say, without irony given some of my posts in this thread). And it all starts with the game day commentators who pour over super slow-motion footage, often from angles the ref can't even see, and make disparaging comments (fuck you Marshall) about decision and call teams "hard done by".
And it snowballs from there.
Fucking this. Fans will always bitch and moan, but given a large proportion of people watching the game don't have the same in-depth knowledge of the laws that most on here do it's pretty bloody important that the commentators don't dwell on the little stuff and attack the ref constantly. It shapes the perception of the game and leads to predictable outrage in the days following.
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@Pot-Hale it doesn't matter if contact was avoidable/unavoidable. All that matters is that he played the ball, and whether that was instinctive or not is beside the point (probably 70% of what happens on the field is instinctive). Not sure if you're arguing that point or just trying to understand what might have been going through the refs mind.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale it doesn't matter if contact was avoidable/unavoidable. All that matters is that he played the ball, and whether that was instinctive or not is beside the point (probably 70% of what happens on the field is instinctive). Not sure if you're arguing that point or just trying to understand what might have been going through the refs mind.
The latter.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
In other words, the officials thought it was an unavoidable/accidental offside and believed that a penalty was the correct sanction. Garces then intervenes and says the correct sanction is a scrum to black.
You'd have to be Helen Keller to think Owens has been accidentally hit by the ball here; he reaches for the fucking thing:
Leaving aside what I'm suggesting was the decision process by Poite et al, I personally think that Owens could not avoid being hit by the ball in that situation. Your gif undoubtedly shows his left arm going out. But given his speed, contact was inevitable and unavoidable.
There's a second between the ball hitting Williams and Owens catching it. ~27 frames at 25fps. If he had not played at the ball, 11.6 (accidental offside) would probably have come into play. But he decided to catch it.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
That clip even throws out my generous assessment that there would have been unavoidable contact anyway. If he doesn't reach and gather the ball it goes right past him
The more I look at that clip, the more I think it was not a knock-forward. The ball goes backward or level to Williams since he is falling backwards anyway. And from that clip, it looks like the ball came off Williams face but I suspect there are some frames missing due to the frame rate grab.
It's immaterial if the ball went forward. Owens is offside and played at the ball. The ball definitely comes off Williams.
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As in that's what Poite said to Read. He didn't play it with his hand first, it hit Owen's upper arm area. (He demonstrated the upper arm bit). It was not deliberate, it was accidental is what he said. Therefore, Accidental Offside.
Something tells me that we'll never get to hear what Garces said though.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
In other words, the officials thought it was an unavoidable/accidental offside and believed that a penalty was the correct sanction. Garces then intervenes and says the correct sanction is a scrum to black.
You'd have to be Helen Keller to think Owens has been accidentally hit by the ball here; he reaches for the fucking thing:
Leaving aside what I'm suggesting was the decision process by Poite et al, I personally think that Owens could not avoid being hit by the ball in that situation. Your gif undoubtedly shows his left arm going out. But given his speed, contact was inevitable and unavoidable.
There's a second between the ball hitting Williams and Owens catching it. ~27 frames at 25fps. If he had not played at the ball, 11.6 (accidental offside) would probably have come into play. But he decided to catch it.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
That clip even throws out my generous assessment that there would have been unavoidable contact anyway. If he doesn't reach and gather the ball it goes right past him
The more I look at that clip, the more I think it was not a knock-forward. The ball goes backward or level to Williams since he is falling backwards anyway. And from that clip, it looks like the ball came off Williams face but I suspect there are some frames missing due to the frame rate grab.
It's immaterial if the ball went forward. Owens is offside and played at the ball. The ball definitely comes off Williams.
Eh? It's immaterial if the ball went forward? Surely it is absolutely material? If it didn't knock forward then it wouldn't be a knock-on. It's the knock-on law that makes it a penalty??
My point about it coming off Williams face also means it's not a knock on. But the frame rate in the clip above is too slow to be sure about this.
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@Pot-Hale again, that is not the point of contention, the TMO & ref agreed it went forward, I expect even Garces agreed it went forward, given he claimed it was accidental, so that is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that the player caught the ball, as is caught it, didnt drop it.
Pretty hard to accidentally catch something, probably easier to accidentally drop something than accidentally catch something.
I suspect the comms are recorded, but as with all things reffing, these will be shrouded in secrecy and privy only to the reffing big wigs to listen too in thier drunken stupor.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
As in that's what Poite said to Read. He didn't play it with his hand first, it hit Owen's upper arm area. (He demonstrated the upper arm bit). It was not deliberate, it was accidental is what he said. Therefore, Accidental Offside.
Something tells me that we'll never get to hear what Garces said though.
On Sky program The Breakdown. Jim Kayes said Garces conversation to Poite was simply "Romaine, have you considered a scrum?", then after 10 seconds of silence/thought Poite said "Oui, Jerome".
Kayes said in the press box they get the inter-ref audio.
Nothing scandalously juicy, but just wrong.
Programme is probably be on YouTube by now, if you want to look it up.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale again, that is not the point of contention, the TMO & ref agreed it went forward, I expect even Garces agreed it went forward, given he claimed it was accidental, so that is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that the player caught the ball, as is caught it, didnt drop it.
Pretty hard to accidentally catch something, probably easier to accidentally drop something than accidentally catch something.
I suspect the comms are recorded, but as with all things reffing, these will be shrouded in secrecy and privy only to the reffing big wigs to listen too in thier drunken stupor.
I know the knock on is not the point of contention. And I know Poite and Ayoub agreed on it. And I know that Poite thought it hit his upper arm first and not played it with his hand first. It was accidental, not deliberate.
And that's the only public reasoning that we know of from Poite for his decision.
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@Sapetyvi said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Bones You don't think being thrown under the bus had any effect in him choosing 7's?
I thought he switched because he so surprised himself with his own turn of speed leaving the pitch at the end of the Scotland v Australia match in the RWC that he thought he'd be better suited to sevens...
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@Rapido said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
As in that's what Poite said to Read. He didn't play it with his hand first, it hit Owen's upper arm area. (He demonstrated the upper arm bit). It was not deliberate, it was accidental is what he said. Therefore, Accidental Offside.
Something tells me that we'll never get to hear what Garces said though.
On Sky program The Breakdown. Jim Kayes said Garces conversation to Poite was simply "Romaine, have you considered a scrum?", then after 10 seconds of silence/thought Poite said "Oui, Jerome".
Kayes said in the press box they get the inter-ref audio.
Nothing scandalously juicy, but just wrong.
Programme is probably be on YouTube by now, if you want to look it up.
That's interesting. Because there isn't 10 seconds of silence. Poite turns from Pepyer after Ayoub says "Yes I am" and the two captains come up to him and he says to them whilst showing with his hands mimicking in the air:
"Fair contest. Oui Jerome?"Then he puts his hand to his earpiece and is evidently listening to something. He puts his hand to his earpiece a second time as he calls the two captains together.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
As in that's what Poite said to Read. He didn't play it with his hand first, it hit Owen's upper arm area. (He demonstrated the upper arm bit). It was not deliberate, it was accidental is what he said. Therefore, Accidental Offside.
Something tells me that we'll never get to hear what Garces said though.
On Sky program The Breakdown. Jim Kayes said Garces conversation to Poite was simply "Romaine, have you considered a scrum?", then after 10 seconds of silence/thought Poite said "Oui, Jerome".
Kayes said in the press box they get the inter-ref audio.
Nothing scandalously juicy, but just wrong.
Programme is probably be on YouTube by now, if you want to look it up.
That's interesting. Because there isn't 10 seconds of silence. Poite turns from Pepyer after Ayoub says "Yes I am" and the two captains come up to him and he says to them whilst showing with his hands mimicking in the air:
"Fair contest. Oui Jerome?"Then he puts his hand to his earpiece and is evidently listening to something. He puts his hand to his earpiece a second time as he calls the two captains together.
It's my rough recall of Kayes' explanation.
I'd recommend looking it up on YouTube if you want a more accurate version.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
In other words, the officials thought it was an unavoidable/accidental offside and believed that a penalty was the correct sanction. Garces then intervenes and says the correct sanction is a scrum to black.
You'd have to be Helen Keller to think Owens has been accidentally hit by the ball here; he reaches for the fucking thing:
Leaving aside what I'm suggesting was the decision process by Poite et al, I personally think that Owens could not avoid being hit by the ball in that situation. Your gif undoubtedly shows his left arm going out. But given his speed, contact was inevitable and unavoidable.
There's a second between the ball hitting Williams and Owens catching it. ~27 frames at 25fps. If he had not played at the ball, 11.6 (accidental offside) would probably have come into play. But he decided to catch it.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
.
It's immaterial if the ball went forward. Owens is offside and played at the ball. The ball definitely comes off Williams.
Is thst correct? Surely if the ball's gone back then you're not offside? Can't be bothered googling the law ...
