RWC Draw
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While I don’t condone rushing a ref like that, if he was corrupt maybe he deserved it?
Neutral refs are important to avoid even the appearance of corruption or bias. Something Super Rugby should consider with their cost cutting.
You could understand maybe one AR being Romanian, but all three?
Not to mention the language barrier you've already got with Belgian v Spanish.
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While I don’t condone rushing a ref like that, if he was corrupt maybe he deserved it?
Neutral refs are important to avoid even the appearance of corruption or bias. Something Super Rugby should consider with their cost cutting.
You could understand maybe one AR being Romanian, but all three?
Not to mention the language barrier you've already got with Belgian v Spanish.
Not really. I'd expect all 3 officials speaking the same language is pretty common/standard. That is the UEFA/FIFA soccer norm, and I'd imagine Rugby Europe would be influenced by that model. I say with absolutely no research whatsoever.
But this is a rugby body in which there are about 40 to 50 odd countries, of which only about 3 or 4 would share a language.
It should have been changed though when it was relaised that what would have been exepcted to be an unimportant obscure match at the time of scheduling had took on so much importance (for Romania as well as Spain), as apparently Spain did request,.
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We all wait for Gosper's tweet but I fear this will disappear in the ether like the explanation of the 3rd Lions test debacle.
Gosper is firmly in someone's pocket!
Gosper was adamant that the number of players choosing club over country wasn't damaging the international game – yet.
"We'll have to monitor that reality to see over the coming years if the international game has to adjust in anyway," he said.
"For now, there is no damage to the international game, as far as I'm concerned."
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Samoa knew they'd be facing Spain in RWC qualifier...over 2 weeks ago
19 March, 5:57pm
The intrigue surrounding Spain’s failure to automatically qualify for the Rugby World Cup is deepening, as an article written over two weeks ago suggested that Samoan Rugby knew they’d be facing Spain and not Romania in the playoff.Manu Samoa – according to the article in the Samoa Observer – knew they would be facing Spain in a Rugby World Cup qualifer on June 9, despite the fact that Spain were in pole position to take the automatic qualifying space.
Instead Romania qualified for Rugby World Cup 2019 after a dramatic finale to the Rugby Europe Championship yesterday (Sunday). Spain must now face Portugal for the right to play Samoa in June.
Ugly scenes at the Belgium Spain match in Brussels, where Spanish players surrounded the Romanian referee, Vlad Iordachescu; have catapulted the issue to prominence in the last 24 hours.
The choice of a Romanian referee in a match that directly affected Romania’s qualification for the Rugby World Cup has raised eyebrows and questions have been asked as to how this situation was allowed develop by World Rugby.
The penalty count in the match is reported to have been in the region of 28 – 8 in favour of Belgium and many are questioning how the penalty could be so one-sided.
Rugby Europe released the following statement today: “Rugby Europe Selection Committee is waiting for the assessment report of the Supervisor for Belgium v Spain Match officials.
“In addition, this Committee will meet in Poznan next Friday on the occasion of the Rugby Europe U18 Championships. Its agenda will be modified and a large portion of the meeting will be devoted to the analysis of every stage of the Belgium v Spain game. Following this meeting, a statement will be released to Rugby Europe Board of Directors for dissemination.”
Adding to the intrigue is that fact the Samoa Observer reported two weeks ago on March 1 that: “Spain will host Manu Samoa for their first Rugby World Cup qualifying match on June 9.
“This was confirmed by the Manu Samoa Head Coach, Fuimaono Titimaea Tafua, in an interview with Samoa Observer.
“Manu Samoa will then host Spain in Apia Park on June 23 for their final qualifying match.”
How Samoa’s coaching staff were certain they’d be playing Spain is unclear.
Prior to the 2018 Rugby Europe Championship, Romania would have been favourites to grab the automatic qualifying, but the statement from Manu Samoa came after Spain had beaten Romania and had themselves become favourites to automatically qualify.
World Rugby released the following statement today, washing their hands of the appointment of the referee.
“While World Rugby does not appoint match officials for the Rugby Europe Championship, it is in contact with Rugby Europe to understand the context of events relating to the Belgium v Spain match in Brussels on Sunday, which doubled as an important RWC 2019 qualifier.”
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While I don’t condone rushing a ref like that, if he was corrupt maybe he deserved it?
Neutral refs are important to avoid even the appearance of corruption or bias. Something Super Rugby should consider with their cost cutting.
Yep, that's my view too. Normally the ref is off limits, but if the prick is clearly cheating then why should the players have to accept that. They probably don't get a cent to play, in fact are most likely out of pocket, and would have to make some serious sacrifices to get to where they are. Why should they just take something so blatantly corrupt on the chin?
I remember playing once and the ref was one of the coaches for the other team. His cheating was so blatant it was hilarious. After one particularly appalling decision I felt like thumping the prick myself and if that had been a world cup qualifier and one of the most important games of my life then I possibly could have snapped. Probably wouldn't have hit him, but definitely unloaded on him.
At the end of the day this situation should never have arisen. Who is ultimately responsible?
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Let's keep in mind that there's no evidence the ref was cheating. At best he's out of his depth given his experience and language barrier.
The issue lies with the governing body.
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@antipodean you'd think they'd have learnt from all the other times a ref was given a match beyond his experience....
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@antipodean said in RWC Draw:
Let's keep in mind that there's no evidence the ref was cheating. At best he's out of his depth given his experience and language barrier.
The issue lies with the governing body.
I doubt the players would have reacted that way if it was just a communication problem. Is there actually any evidence that there was a language barrier. You'd imagine most if not all on that field would have a basic understanding of English. Probably a few French speakers as well.
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Here's a review of his performance. I haven't watched it yet.
[edit] I've watched enough to realise the commentator isn't much of a ref or reviewer either. Unsurprising tbh.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Draw:
@antipodean you'd think they'd have learnt from all the other times a ref was given a match beyond his experience....
Any particular match spring to mind? I have memory blockages about certain things. PTSD I believe they call it. Did you know that Cardiff isn't a real place? Completely fictional, fake news, made up, like the sword in the stone.
This is pretty fucking bad though and as @Baron-Silas-Greenback says should be replayed. I say all of that without having seen the game - but it smells rancid.
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This thread on the T2 forum is quite interesting on the subject.
http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1544
While there is no over-whelming consensus of opinion, there does seem to be a bit of suspicion of social media whinging.
I haven't watched the game, i had tried to watch that refereeing review video. But the TV broadcast was cheap to start with, watching a dissection of refereeing decisions is pretty life-sapping to start with, watching one dissecting from a low quality broadcast is even more so.
This interesting (and mature, or just sceptical) take on it from a Spanish fan with monniker 'Armchair Fan':
The only legit reason why World Rugby may step up and dismantle Rugby Europe current structure is because Spain made a formal request to change referees that was ignored. Sure, a hypocritical one given other appointments were equally stupid and affected Russia and Romania, but they did it before the game. It's the only reason why Rugby Europe will be forced to give long explanations to World Rugby and heads may roll. And I say heads in plural, if it's only Morariu because he's Romanian it will be pure scapegoating. If that happens for the sake of a better REC or even World Rugby managing it like they do with ARC (TMO, promotion, streaming on meaningful platforms and not f***** Dailymotion...), it's the only positive outcome for everybody.
Refereeing review will lead to nothing at all. First, it's conducted by Rugby Europe and they will not throw stones onto their own roof. Second, how the hell can you prove ill-faith? Some calls were strict but correct (interpretation of rucks, Spanish performances have danced depending on them, we saw against Romania but also against Canada), others plain wrong (to me, Spanish yellow card, Belgian intentional knock-on and lineouts+mauling). But a referee has the right to be wrong. My personal opinion is that Spain jumped on the field knowing they had a Romanian referee that Rugby Europe refused to change. And that Vlad Iordachescu knew Spain had tried to get him removed. No Romanian conspiracy, no corruption. Just two sides with reasons to distrust each other.
It seems to me that Spain protested early calls to try to remind him he was playing with fire and it seriously backfired. And while Spanish first half was plain awful, our mindset slightly changed after halftime and I truly believe Iordachescu equally lost the plot in the second half. Would I like to have a word with him as a Spanish fan? Oh, boy, I'd love to have that chance... But I can understand it from a human perspective. He knows Spain tried to get him out of this game, he's been suffering for 40, 50 minutes players protesting all his calls and he's got a history of losing his cool in games. If I were in his position I would easily find one team friendlier than the other. Spanish players did themselves no favours.
That said, I expect heavy bans for two or three Spanish players and a fine for Spanish Rugby Union. The image given at the end of the game was stupid and brings the whole game into a disrepute. Even inside Spain, where I fear all the good work done for the past five years has exploded in 48 hours. If it was decided to ban us from Rugby World Cup Qualifiers it wouldn't be too undeserved (at this stage Russia would have bigger chances to qualify than us, we're going to send shit teams for the rest of the process), but it won't happen. To the eyes of Tier 1 sides who love a story about underdogs being discrimined by institutions, a ban for Spain would sound like EPCR fine to Timisoara Saracens when their pitch froze against Stade Français. "Oh, poor guys... They are cheated and now add salt to injury". And if there is anything more precious to World Rugby than money it's their image. In fact, am I talking about World Rugby or Agustín Pichot? Populism above all.
Anyway I fear for other consequences in the future. Spain was planning to send a letter to World Rugby very critical of Rugby Europe regarding their take on women's rugby with the support of Spanish government. Now we become an even bigger pain in the ass (because the truth is nobody cares about women's rugby) by somewhat sending to the whole world that Rugby Europe is a bunch of cheaters. Even if Spain escapes with lesser fines, the impact will be there. Even at small scale. Referees are close to each other, beyond nationality. There is no way they will see our players in the same way after harassing one of theirs.
And a rematch? Seriously? You can't prove there was purposeful wrongdoing from the referee. The fact that Rugby Europe was reckless and amateurish and that I'd gladly put their offices on fire BECAUSE I KNEW THIS COULD HAPPEN TWO F****** MONTHS AGO AND PEOPLE WHOSE F****** WORK IS TO PREVENT THIS DIDN'T isn't enough to rob Belgium of a game won on the field. There are no dates free in the schedule. You can't release players from clubs forever. And you would open a huge can of worms, as I said when Russia v Spain was played.
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I'm sensing ref-whinging cry-babery. It can happen to the best of us, so not judging.
Penalty count actually only 18-7? Not 23-8, 24-8, or 28-8 I had read earlier in various locations.
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20802-Trouble-at-Los-Millos/page6
The penalty count at the close of the match was Spain 18, Belgium 7. At the 60 minute mark, with Belgium leading 15-0, the penalties were 16-3.
A Dark Day for Rugby - Americas Rugby News
On Saturday we witnessed Ireland make history with a Grand Slam finish of the Six Nations, arguably the world’s most prestigious rugby event outside of the World Cup. A day of celebration for the rugby world though decidedly somber for England rugby devotees. When we woke from the hangover on...
I'm reading/sensing Spain seemed to go in expecting to be victimized, contributing to the fulfilment of that actual outcome.
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@rapido Only two things are clear:
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nobody can tell with certainty how many penalties there were each way (I wouldn't take the word of anyone on that rugbyrefs forum more seriously than anyone on the Fern)
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this situation could easily have been avoided if the Spanish request for a neutral refereeing team had been met and neutral refs had been appointed.
Just as the conclusions that the match was fixed, the refs were corrupt and Spain was a victim of terrible refereeing are premature, I also think conclusions the other way are too quick.
I must say that I don't know who to believe (I'm not "sensing" anything apart from confusion about the facts), just that Rugby Europe has stuffed this up and are responsible for the mess by the stupid referee appointment.
Interesting detail: assuming that the result stands and Romania has qualified for the 2019 RWC in pool A, it is possible that Spain - if they defeat Portugal, and then Samoa (I consider that unlikely) - end up in the same pool A. Can you imagine what the pool game Romania v Spain will be like next year? They'll need the best ref and ARs possible, and extra security guards.
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