RWC Draw
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While I don’t condone rushing a ref like that, if he was corrupt maybe he deserved it?
Neutral refs are important to avoid even the appearance of corruption or bias. Something Super Rugby should consider with their cost cutting.
Yep, that's my view too. Normally the ref is off limits, but if the prick is clearly cheating then why should the players have to accept that. They probably don't get a cent to play, in fact are most likely out of pocket, and would have to make some serious sacrifices to get to where they are. Why should they just take something so blatantly corrupt on the chin?
I remember playing once and the ref was one of the coaches for the other team. His cheating was so blatant it was hilarious. After one particularly appalling decision I felt like thumping the prick myself and if that had been a world cup qualifier and one of the most important games of my life then I possibly could have snapped. Probably wouldn't have hit him, but definitely unloaded on him.
At the end of the day this situation should never have arisen. Who is ultimately responsible?
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Let's keep in mind that there's no evidence the ref was cheating. At best he's out of his depth given his experience and language barrier.
The issue lies with the governing body.
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@antipodean you'd think they'd have learnt from all the other times a ref was given a match beyond his experience....
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@antipodean said in RWC Draw:
Let's keep in mind that there's no evidence the ref was cheating. At best he's out of his depth given his experience and language barrier.
The issue lies with the governing body.
I doubt the players would have reacted that way if it was just a communication problem. Is there actually any evidence that there was a language barrier. You'd imagine most if not all on that field would have a basic understanding of English. Probably a few French speakers as well.
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Here's a review of his performance. I haven't watched it yet.
[edit] I've watched enough to realise the commentator isn't much of a ref or reviewer either. Unsurprising tbh.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Draw:
@antipodean you'd think they'd have learnt from all the other times a ref was given a match beyond his experience....
Any particular match spring to mind? I have memory blockages about certain things. PTSD I believe they call it. Did you know that Cardiff isn't a real place? Completely fictional, fake news, made up, like the sword in the stone.
This is pretty fucking bad though and as @Baron-Silas-Greenback says should be replayed. I say all of that without having seen the game - but it smells rancid.
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This thread on the T2 forum is quite interesting on the subject.
While there is no over-whelming consensus of opinion, there does seem to be a bit of suspicion of social media whinging.
I haven't watched the game, i had tried to watch that refereeing review video. But the TV broadcast was cheap to start with, watching a dissection of refereeing decisions is pretty life-sapping to start with, watching one dissecting from a low quality broadcast is even more so.
This interesting (and mature, or just sceptical) take on it from a Spanish fan with monniker 'Armchair Fan':
The only legit reason why World Rugby may step up and dismantle Rugby Europe current structure is because Spain made a formal request to change referees that was ignored. Sure, a hypocritical one given other appointments were equally stupid and affected Russia and Romania, but they did it before the game. It's the only reason why Rugby Europe will be forced to give long explanations to World Rugby and heads may roll. And I say heads in plural, if it's only Morariu because he's Romanian it will be pure scapegoating. If that happens for the sake of a better REC or even World Rugby managing it like they do with ARC (TMO, promotion, streaming on meaningful platforms and not f***** Dailymotion...), it's the only positive outcome for everybody.
Refereeing review will lead to nothing at all. First, it's conducted by Rugby Europe and they will not throw stones onto their own roof. Second, how the hell can you prove ill-faith? Some calls were strict but correct (interpretation of rucks, Spanish performances have danced depending on them, we saw against Romania but also against Canada), others plain wrong (to me, Spanish yellow card, Belgian intentional knock-on and lineouts+mauling). But a referee has the right to be wrong. My personal opinion is that Spain jumped on the field knowing they had a Romanian referee that Rugby Europe refused to change. And that Vlad Iordachescu knew Spain had tried to get him removed. No Romanian conspiracy, no corruption. Just two sides with reasons to distrust each other.
It seems to me that Spain protested early calls to try to remind him he was playing with fire and it seriously backfired. And while Spanish first half was plain awful, our mindset slightly changed after halftime and I truly believe Iordachescu equally lost the plot in the second half. Would I like to have a word with him as a Spanish fan? Oh, boy, I'd love to have that chance... But I can understand it from a human perspective. He knows Spain tried to get him out of this game, he's been suffering for 40, 50 minutes players protesting all his calls and he's got a history of losing his cool in games. If I were in his position I would easily find one team friendlier than the other. Spanish players did themselves no favours.
That said, I expect heavy bans for two or three Spanish players and a fine for Spanish Rugby Union. The image given at the end of the game was stupid and brings the whole game into a disrepute. Even inside Spain, where I fear all the good work done for the past five years has exploded in 48 hours. If it was decided to ban us from Rugby World Cup Qualifiers it wouldn't be too undeserved (at this stage Russia would have bigger chances to qualify than us, we're going to send shit teams for the rest of the process), but it won't happen. To the eyes of Tier 1 sides who love a story about underdogs being discrimined by institutions, a ban for Spain would sound like EPCR fine to Timisoara Saracens when their pitch froze against Stade Français. "Oh, poor guys... They are cheated and now add salt to injury". And if there is anything more precious to World Rugby than money it's their image. In fact, am I talking about World Rugby or Agustín Pichot? Populism above all.
Anyway I fear for other consequences in the future. Spain was planning to send a letter to World Rugby very critical of Rugby Europe regarding their take on women's rugby with the support of Spanish government. Now we become an even bigger pain in the ass (because the truth is nobody cares about women's rugby) by somewhat sending to the whole world that Rugby Europe is a bunch of cheaters. Even if Spain escapes with lesser fines, the impact will be there. Even at small scale. Referees are close to each other, beyond nationality. There is no way they will see our players in the same way after harassing one of theirs.
And a rematch? Seriously? You can't prove there was purposeful wrongdoing from the referee. The fact that Rugby Europe was reckless and amateurish and that I'd gladly put their offices on fire BECAUSE I KNEW THIS COULD HAPPEN TWO F****** MONTHS AGO AND PEOPLE WHOSE F****** WORK IS TO PREVENT THIS DIDN'T isn't enough to rob Belgium of a game won on the field. There are no dates free in the schedule. You can't release players from clubs forever. And you would open a huge can of worms, as I said when Russia v Spain was played.
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I'm sensing ref-whinging cry-babery. It can happen to the best of us, so not judging.
Penalty count actually only 18-7? Not 23-8, 24-8, or 28-8 I had read earlier in various locations.
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20802-Trouble-at-Los-Millos/page6
The penalty count at the close of the match was Spain 18, Belgium 7. At the 60 minute mark, with Belgium leading 15-0, the penalties were 16-3.
A Dark Day for Rugby - Americas Rugby News
On Saturday we witnessed Ireland make history with a Grand Slam finish of the Six Nations, arguably the world’s most prestigious rugby event outside of the World Cup. A day of celebration for the rugby world though decidedly somber for England rugby devotees. When we woke from the hangover on...
I'm reading/sensing Spain seemed to go in expecting to be victimized, contributing to the fulfilment of that actual outcome.
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@rapido Only two things are clear:
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nobody can tell with certainty how many penalties there were each way (I wouldn't take the word of anyone on that rugbyrefs forum more seriously than anyone on the Fern)
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this situation could easily have been avoided if the Spanish request for a neutral refereeing team had been met and neutral refs had been appointed.
Just as the conclusions that the match was fixed, the refs were corrupt and Spain was a victim of terrible refereeing are premature, I also think conclusions the other way are too quick.
I must say that I don't know who to believe (I'm not "sensing" anything apart from confusion about the facts), just that Rugby Europe has stuffed this up and are responsible for the mess by the stupid referee appointment.
Interesting detail: assuming that the result stands and Romania has qualified for the 2019 RWC in pool A, it is possible that Spain - if they defeat Portugal, and then Samoa (I consider that unlikely) - end up in the same pool A. Can you imagine what the pool game Romania v Spain will be like next year? They'll need the best ref and ARs possible, and extra security guards.
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Unlikely to happen given the road ahead, but it would be great if Spain and Romania met in RWC Pool A!
A brutal game where the Romanians have the edge but keep getting penalised by highly pedantic officials.
Spain to win it with a controversial try in the last minute... going against TV ref decision... conversion successful for the 1 point win!!! Vamos!!!!(After the match Ref Wayne Barnes is found to have a Spanish grandmother...:)
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I still haven't watched the full 80, haven't found it yet.
I watch this video on the ref by a Spanish fan.
Really isn't much to see here imo.
Belgium smashing Spain in the scrum. This is euro rugby, of course they're going to win the penalty count.
A penalty for chat back, when a Spanish player is trying to cover the mouth of his potty mouthed team mate to shut him up.
The most supposedly controversial moment; Spain going in for a try on a penalty advantage and ref whistles it back for the penalty. Well, correctly called back as Spain made the break from an obstruction which ref calls. Anyway he blows whistle before last tackler who pulls out.
This is such a social media festered witch hunt , wannabe victims.
Heavy punishment needed for Spanish players.
The video above is quite good as I can't understand much Spanish so not distracted by the stupid, like in that other video with the hopeless amateur ref.
I basically couldn't see what the complainants were for in so many of them as the video rolls in real time. Which is what the ref is also doing. -
@rapido yeah had a look. Some straw clutching from my view of that. Most, not all, calls seemed to make sense.
But hardly Barnesesque (or Lawrencian if you're a Saffer).
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World Rugby committee to review Rugby World Cup qualifier between Spain and Belgium
World Rugby has commissioned an independent disputes committee to review the controversial end to Europe's World Cup qualification period. The decisive match between Belgium and Spain will be front and centre of the investigation, with the world governing body "deeply concerned" about the deployment of a Romanian officiating team."World Rugby was deeply concerned about the circumstances surrounding the Belgium versus Spain Rugby Europe Championship match, a match that was decisive in the context of Rugby World Cup 2019 qualification," said a statement from the sport's governing body. "Specifically, concerns related to the process and perception of Rugby Europe's appointment of a match official team that was not neutral in the context of qualification and failing to act on Spain's concerns in respect of the appointment. "While recognising Rugby Europe's responsibility to review events in their own competition, given the context and significance of the fixture World Rugby acted immediately to request information relating to the above issues from Rugby Europe and participating unions." World Rugby's executive committee and board had advocated a replay of the Belgium-Spain tie but unspecified issues around player eligibility appear to have clouded the issue yet further. "Given this information concerns potential breaches of World Rugby regulations, and given the complexity and interconnectivity of the issues, a full and independent review is warranted," the statement added. "This is in the best interests of the sport, teams and fans and is fully supported by Rugby Europe." Rugby Europe has also convened an independent judicial panel into player conduct after the match in question, with disgruntled members of the Spain team appearing to confront Iordachescu as he left the field..
If WR in its statement says that
the World Rugby Executive Committee and Rugby World Cup Board felt that a replay would be in the best interests of the game.but then orders an independent review because
new information relating to player eligibility in the Rugby Europe Championship has been presented to World Rugby by the participating unionsthen we still do'nt know whether the qualification match will be replayed? Geez. Those two home and away matches against Samoa for the country that misses out on direct qualification are in June. They'd better hurry up!
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The eligibility questions will impact any decision, after World Rugby set the precedent in disqualifying Tahiti.
Romania fielded an ineligible Tongan (played a sevens event for Tonga in 2013) in the competition. Spain has fielded 3 possibly ineligible players (Belie, Grammatico, Fuster) and Belgium one since last RWC. Russia has had Rudoy's eligibility questioned, but seems squeaky clean. If matches are ruled out, any one of Spain, Romania and Russia might qualify!
I can't help but feel that there was a degree of self-fulfilling prophecy (as mentioned earlier) in the way the Spanish played, after the uproar about Romanian officials being appointed before the match. I do feel sorry for Iordachescu, the referee, who should not have been placed in the position he was, with people wound up to bag him.
It will be interesting, and certainly controversial, to see who gets to play the playoff with Samoa.
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Why on earth did WR think "a replay would be in the best interests of the game." ?
Do they make up their policies by reading outraged twitter feeds?
It's all going to be elementary as both Romania and Spain will be disqualified anyway, so why even slightly open the replay can of worms?
I feel let down by some poor leadership.
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@rapido I'm sure they've had people with more expertise & less bias watching the footage of that game, and have had a better assessment of what went on, than biased people on rugby blogs/forums/social media (biased towards both sides, by the way).
The replay issue came before the eligibility issue; that's why they took that decision first, before they received info about eligibility issues. Read the statement!
