Azzuri v Bokke
-
The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?
Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster
-
@reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:
@Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:
The Boks.
The end result of political correctness.
fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.
What? That's not what he meant at all. Quotas (which is the very definition of PC) have ruined SA rugby. It's a shame.
-
@NTA said in Azzuri v Bokke:
The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?
Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster
Because the ANC want rugby ruined, basically.
-
@Kirwan said in Azzuri v Bokke:
@NTA said in Azzuri v Bokke:
The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?
Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster
Because the ANC want rugby ruined, basically.
I think this might be the crux of the matter, perhaps with a proviso that if not ruination, then run and owned by "our people"
-
it is not PC gone mad to try to re-dress imbalances caused by a totally fucked and disgusting regime which oppressed millions of people. it's fine to argue re the details of implementation, but you can't just say 'everything is equal now' after putting generations of people in a position where it is far more difficult for them to succeed.
here's the team:
Springboks: 15-Willie le Roux‚ 14-Ruan Combrinck‚ 13-Francois Venter‚ 12-Damian de Allende‚ 11-Bryan Habana‚ 10-Pat Lambie‚ 9-Rudy Paige‚ 8-Warren Whiteley‚ 7-Willem Alberts‚ 6-Nizaam Carr‚ 5-Lood de Jager‚ 4-Pieter-Steph du Toit‚ 3-Vincent Koch‚ 2-Adriaan Strauss (capt)‚ 1-Tendai Mtawarira.they didn't beat italy because PC has gone mad?
haven't tried adding a picture before so will see if this works
-
here's the team that lost to japan for good measure. quotas are not the reason this side loses to japan. complacency, shit coaching, shit selection (regardless of race), shit tactics, shit economy forcing players overseas etc etc.
- Tendai Mtawarira
- Bismarck Du Plessis
- Jannie Du Plessis
- Lodewyk De Jager
- Victor Matfield
- Francois Louw
- Willem Alberts
- Schalk Burger
- Ruan Pienaar
- Pat Lambie
- Lwazi Mvovo
- Jean De Villiers (captain)
- Jesse Kriel
- Bryan Habana
- Zane Kirchner
-
@reprobate I don't think anyone is arguing that the SARU should encourage black people to play the game. However, a lot of them simply just don't want to. The work should be done at the grassroots and the top level should remain as a meritocracy. I think it becomes a problem where if a team is bad for so long they lose their DNA. I think that has happened with the Windies cricket team. If they were going to recover, they would have done so already. I don't think South Africa is anywhere near that state. However, if they keep losing to teams like Italy (when Italy haven't made many discernible improvements) it isn't going to encourage anyone to start playing more rugby.
-
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
-
SA must have a 50% non white RWC squad in 2019
Whilst the current teams are not close to that quota level it is already having an impact.
There are economic reasons why it is difficult for SA to have its best players stay in SR.. but the the coming quota system is making it even more attractive for white players to leave now. The SR teams have been hollowed out.I hope I'm wrong, but I think SA is about to have a similar decline to the Welsh in the 80s & 90s
-
-
South Africa being shit isn't good for us either. The Rugby Championship already is lacking a bit of luster given we have won it in every year it has actually meant something. South Africa being perennially poor is just not going to be a good thing. I hope it doesn't happen.
-
@No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock. -
A generation has grown up since Mandela assumed power. The question that necessarily follows is when do you acknowledge that quotas are no longer necessary? How do you recognise that such policies are no longer required?
-
-
@antipodean yep absolutely: implementation details and time-frames are all up for debate and a complex thing. my point is really just that if you have a big fucking mess, then trying to do something to fix it is a good idea.
also that the boks' losses are not due to quotas, because they're not. the decline in bok rugby has far more to do with them spending the last decade insisting that they keep playing shit 10 man rugby and trying to outmuscle everyone, having shit coaches, picking past-it white guys and having guys leave for money - rather than a very few marginal coloured selections.
even if you accept the (i think blatantly) false premise that the quotas are the reason, then it is apartheid that has fucked the boks, not PC gone mad. -
-
@reprobate
I don't disagree with extra money/resources being put into the lower levels in terms of coaching and development. And maybe even a quota system at the lower levels.But I don't think there should be any quota system beyond Super or Curry Cup level.- i.e for internationals
Once you reach here, everyone has equality of opportunity.
Once you reach that, even if it may be on the back of a quota (or not), everyone is equal.
There should absolutely not be a quota system to select for the Boks. None. -
@reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:
@No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock.And how does that relate to a rugby side?
I'm all for quotas, fast tracking etc. in a post apartheid world when concerning jobs, university positions, schools etc. But again, this is a bloody rugby side and a sport that the vast majority of black South Africans couldn't give a shit about. I don't see how selecting fringe players and inexperienced coaches is helping anyone or growing the game among the black population. You don't learn on the job in international rugby if you're not ready, you get torn apart.
Another thing is that if a white person misses out on a job to a black person because of quotas he can at least get another job or pursue another career. What do you do if you don't get selected for the Boks because of your skin colour?. Not many options available to you then. Well actually there are. You leave the country.
