All Blacks v Ireland II
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Hey all, another Paddy in giving his 2 cents!
It may be worth following up on what munstergreen said. We do certainly have issues with the media, but in many respects they just reflect the country too. Rugby is our 4th most popular sport and while there are a lot of people who love the game and are relatively knowledgeable about it there are also a whole heap of people who only watch the internationals. So they might see a sum total of about 6 or 7 games a year generally. The level of interest isn't that high from large portions of the population, and so the level of knowledge isn't either. Also, you get your impressions of the fans themselves from the Internet and the Internet is the home of outrage, hyperbole and polarisation!
All that said I do think Peyper is a poor referee, and he wasn't at all helped by his TMO. I have't watched it back yet but I'm sure both sides will have a list of grievances with the officials. At the end of the day NZ brought a level of intensity from the very start that was incredibly impressive. Ireland managed to live with it for the most part, but to win games you have to do more than that. We never really settled into the game in the first half. Losing Stander from the back row meant SOB had to play 80, which he maybe wasn't quite ready for. Then losing our 10 and 12 hurt too. Jackson is a good player, but he's no Sexton. And his form at the moment is a bit below what we'd expect from him. Ringrose is an outside centre who has only ever played against Canada and was forced to play inside centre against you guys. He can be good with that little bit of extra space but he was limited at 12.
In the second half the defensive effort from NZ was exceptional, but in the first half I do think there was a period during the Smith sin binning where Peyper could have been more forceful. Read was pinged at a scrum by the posts for breaking his bind and going after the ball while the Irish scrum was going forward. It was a gamble from him that paid off. He could have seen yellow under a different ref but obviously he felt better to risk the 3 than the 7 (something pretty much every pro team will do). Peyper let him away with it, but what really annoyed me was that Ireland did too. We had you guys under pressure in your 22 and you had conceded a good few penalties. We should have been going for the jugular there. Instead we went for 3 points, which still left us 2 scores behind. For me that's where the game was won and lost. In Chicago we made you pay for the 1 yellow you got. In Dublin we didn't. You guys were happy to concede 3 pointers in your 22 because you were scoring 7 pointers yourselves. That's not a moan or a complaint, it's a norm in pro rugby. It was up to us to punish you and we didn't.
Our execution at times let us down (Jacksons kick to Smith directly leading into the 3rd try for example), but you don't beat NZ by staying in touch with them. You beat them by getting out in front and staying there. We saw in 2013 how that very nearly worked for us and we saw in Chicago that it did work for us. Moving away from that attitude made it impossible for us to get back into it. We tried manfully, and I'm actually pretty happy with how our pack performed, but 25 mins in, after that scrum, we showed our hand. And that was that we weren't going to be ruthless enough.
Congrats on the win and apologies for the whinging and moaning. NZ deserved that win and Ireland didn't.
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@Crucial
"also a complete failure to recognise the betterment of Irish rugby under a NZ coach and Australian development manager."There are certain people who don't like Joe in Ireland, generally related to provincial rivalries. Most of us love the guy. Especially those of us from Leinster. That he's a genuinely nice bloke as well only adds to it.
There are a lot of people who don't like Nucifora though. Again, predominantly provincially motivated. He's playing a long game in Irish rugby and a lot of people don't look past this week/month/season. They want their teams to win now, regardless of what that means for them or Ireland in 5-10 years time. Sadly I think a lot of the work he's doing will only come to fruition when he's gone and he won't get the credit, but I hear he's a thick neck on him so won't be losing any sleep over that.
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@munstergreen said in Ireland II:
@Crucial said in Ireland II:
Fair call, my comment on that was directed to the numpties commenting under news articles.
I do fell that so much of this outcry is due to the influence of the live TV commentary though. I think it was the RTE one I had and it wouldn't have been a stretch for them to start accusing the ABs of carrying knives in their socks. The commentary was a disgrace and if anything regarding that game was pre-meditated it was those pillocks getting behind the mic and preaching about dirty play. Play up to your audience to some degree yes, but if the crowd at the game had been listening to them instead of folk at home you could easily accuse them of inciting a riot.
Yeah RTE are no better. The lads in the studio were far more balanced but the commentary team are never good. The squeaky voiced fecker Rule Nugent forces me to turn the sound off 3 minutes into every game and the woman interviewing Hansen afterwards was a disgrace.
Like I said, sports media is something we are uniquely bad at in this country.
Eh I call bullshit on that. There are plenty of good sports journalists operating in Ireland across a number of sports. Just because you're getting embarrassed by the actions of a few eejits (on a par with plenty of other countries) doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme and throw everyone under the bus.
As for public comments sections, well everyone's got an opinion. Just like me in this one.
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@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@munstergreen said in Ireland II:
@Crucial said in Ireland II:
Fair call, my comment on that was directed to the numpties commenting under news articles.
I do fell that so much of this outcry is due to the influence of the live TV commentary though. I think it was the RTE one I had and it wouldn't have been a stretch for them to start accusing the ABs of carrying knives in their socks. The commentary was a disgrace and if anything regarding that game was pre-meditated it was those pillocks getting behind the mic and preaching about dirty play. Play up to your audience to some degree yes, but if the crowd at the game had been listening to them instead of folk at home you could easily accuse them of inciting a riot.
Yeah RTE are no better. The lads in the studio were far more balanced but the commentary team are never good. The squeaky voiced fecker Rule Nugent forces me to turn the sound off 3 minutes into every game and the woman interviewing Hansen afterwards was a disgrace.
Like I said, sports media is something we are uniquely bad at in this country.
Eh I call bullshit on that. There are plenty of good sports journalists operating in Ireland across a number of sports. Just because you're getting embarrassed by the actions of a few eejits (on a par with plenty of other countries) doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme and throw everyone under the bus.
As for public comments sections, well everyone's got an opinion. Just like me in this one.
Plenty is pushing it. There are a few though. Murray Kinsella in the 42 gets a lot of love from rugby fans, and rightly so, but there are others that are decent. Sadly the clickbait sites like balls.ie are getting a lot of attention from this.
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@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
Eh I call bullshit on that. There are plenty of good sports journalists operating in Ireland across a number of sports. Just because you're getting embarrassed by the actions of a few eejits (on a par with plenty of other countries) doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme and throw everyone under the bus.
As for public comments sections, well everyone's got an opinion. Just like me in this one.
Our high profile rugby and soccer journalism is atrocious. Murray Kinsella is terrific but the masses aren't reading through pages of statistics and bar charts to better their knowledge of the game.
They are reading the one eyed, bitter and often silly ramblings of the many hacks employed by the Times, the Independent and the Examiner. They're listening to the shocking commentary of clowns like Nugent, Sheehan or that incredibly one eyed Northern fella on Sky and getting their analysis from fools like George Hook, Eamon Dunphy and Trevor Francis.
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I am not surprised by this reaction at all. You never beat the Irish they are always the victims of some injustice it seems. But if they beat you, oh you better be a good loser take it in your stride and accept it or you will never hear the end of it.
Source: Wife is Irish.
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@mooshld said in Ireland II:
I am not surprised by this reaction at all. You never beat the
Irishwives, they are always the victims of some injustice it seems. But if they beat you, oh you better be a good loser take it in your stride and accept it or you will never hear the end of it.Source: Wife
is Irish.Fixed
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Ah now there are more level headed reactions in fairness:
Analysis: Ireland's failure to convert costs them dearly against the All Blacks
Joe Schmidt’s men couldn’t turn their big chances into the tries they needed.
Ireland left frustrated and tryless as All Blacks edge brutal battle in Dublin
Beauden Barrett was involved in all three of the Kiwi’s tries at the Aviva Stadium.
Barrett-inspired defeat a missed opportunity for wasteful Ireland
Amid the all the darkness, Beauden Barrett's black magic won the match on Saturday.
I'd also point out that there cannot be any question that NZ have a discipline issue at the moment. 12-4 was the penalty count in Chicago. 14-4 in Dublin. 3 yellow cards across both Tests to 0. 2 citings to 0. And the citing commissioner apparently referred 12 incidents in the game on Saturday back to the teams. 11 of those to NZ. While I don't like the whinging and the moaning it's pretty clear there is a discipline issue there that can't be ignored.
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I forgot to mention the hypocrisy.
Heaslip gets a straight red for kneeing McCaw in the head. Not a dirty player. O'Driscoll gets a yellow for stomping against the Italians. Not a dirty player. Sexton mouthing off after scoring he's just intense not arrogant.
Then there is the fans. So respectful at kicks for goal. But scream so loud at lineouts the hooker can't hear the call and try and put off the opposition for every up and under.
You rape the islands for players. Don't mind our project player policy. Or our offering of caps to any one with an Irish granny who looks a decent prospect. That's not a new thing either they tried it with Lawrence Dallaglio in 95
Now the all black's were too aggressive. From a country that has idolised the thuggish Munster pack for years. Please.
My hatiest team to watch and not for the team, who still like decent blokes, for the media and fans.
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@molloyjh said in Ireland II:
Ah now there are more level headed reactions in fairness:
Analysis: Ireland's failure to convert costs them dearly against the All Blacks
Joe Schmidt’s men couldn’t turn their big chances into the tries they needed.
Ireland left frustrated and tryless as All Blacks edge brutal battle in Dublin
Beauden Barrett was involved in all three of the Kiwi’s tries at the Aviva Stadium.
Barrett-inspired defeat a missed opportunity for wasteful Ireland
Amid the all the darkness, Beauden Barrett's black magic won the match on Saturday.
I'd also point out that there cannot be any question that NZ have a discipline issue at the moment. 12-4 was the penalty count in Chicago. 14-4 in Dublin. 3 yellow cards across both Tests to 0. 2 citings to 0. And the citing commissioner apparently referred 12 incidents in the game on Saturday back to the teams. 11 of those to NZ. While I don't like the whinging and the moaning it's pretty clear there is a discipline issue there that can't be ignored.
What do you mean by "the citing commissioner apparently referred 12 incidents in the game on Saturday back to the teams"
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@Billy-Tell said in Ireland II:
I'm a bit dark about the Irish media and fans response. Should have known better. Having lived in Ireland, they are perennial whingers, bitter and twisted, when they lose. It's like NZ in the 90s when we would lose in a RWC. They simply never just say "we got beat by a better side", there is always the "we woz robbed" element, which they have combined with the "All Blacks are malicious thugs" element. Their list of referees against whom they hold a grudge is 210 pages long, and even comes with an index for handy reference.
I might actually be tempted to support the clown and his criminal element this weekend, at least the Australians offer something on attack
Steady on.
I'm not sure the cretin element is actual Irish rugby fans or the hangers on that come out of the woodwork when Ireland win but the dickhead seems to run strong in their fanbase. Its been pointed out loads of times what fuckwits "the swarm" are over at planet rugby, how pathetic the Irish behaviour was when exited in the q final in 2007 and the preciousness during the "golden generation" years when we routinely reamed them and thats without even mentioning BOD accusing Mealamu and Umaga of having WMDs .
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@Crucial must be like getting a letter from your kids teacher...Dear Crucial, Today Aaron pushed poor Rory while he was standing innocently beside the ruck, please speak to him and ask him not to do it again. You know we take agreed ion very seriously here at Rugby School.
Your sincerely Mr. C. Itingguy -
I've read about the citing commissioner thing now. Apparently he decided there were 12 incidents in the game he needed to look at. 11 from NZ and one from Ireland. The one from Ireland was the forearm smash on Cane that resulted in his injury. No mention whatsoever why Sexton swinging around BBs neck wasn't worth a look.
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Kinsella has now done another analysis piece. This time on BB
Analysis: Beauden Barrett's moments of magic light up a brutal Test in Dublin
The 25-year-old World Rugby player of the year was superb on Saturday.
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I thought this was a surprisingly balanced and insightful piece
Ireland nurse wounds after New Zealand prevail in bruising encounter
Ireland were beaten 21-9 by New Zealand in Dublin in a bruising match that posed questions for World Rugby, the sport’s governing body
Last week, the notion was mooted that the threshold for a high tackle in age-group rugby be lowered to the waist. That is the kind of measure the senior game needs if World Rugby is serious about the campaign against concussion. For as long as high shots to the upper body are coached, practised and celebrated, there will be unavoidable head-high tackles. To celebrate the one and condemn the other with the ultimate sanctions is a hypocrisy no sport should countenance.
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NZ do have a discipline problem because we don't have the ball. Best way to fix that would be bigger/better pack and to contest more rucks, although that sort of change would need to be weighed up with pros and cons.
In the penalty count accross the 2 games: our discipline was actually poor in Chicago, the only penalty there I had an issue with was the very first in that match - A Smith being penalised for coming around when the ball plopped out of a ruck and Murray (I think) just left it there.
Very similar to what Smith was carded for in game 2. Both wrong.
there were also some inconsistency with sheparding at kickoffs, but our kick offs were mostly crap anyway and their's were good. No big deal.
In this game I didn't realty have an issue with our discipline, I thought Peyper had a shocker. Canes collision counter towards the first card, including the Smith 'foul'. I think it was 4 consecutive penalties plus maybe a penalty advantage. 1 of those was harsh, 1 was wrong, the advantage was for a collapsed maul (haven't seen it replayed as Smith for carded I think almost straight after) but at the time I was yelling at the tv as Irish knees had touched ground earlier in the maul.
I think Read was then lucky not to be carded, but I also think that situation only occurred because NZ were a man down for an erroneous card (even though that scrum was analysed earlier in thread and Heaslip detached and reattached, in that situation ref doesn't have benefit of videos and trying to work out which of the 3 illegal almost simulaneous things happened first) . Read could have gone. Probably should have if Peyper hadn't 'reset' his internal count.
Sometimes when I watch a match and then come on here to the thread, you have to wade through a few pages of the in-match thread with Kearns like venting at the ref, and I'm bemused at all the stuff I never noticed. This time I was affirmatively nodding .....
But Fekitoa made me lose my shit, and momentarily hit the FF button. Dumbest foul in a long time, from so many perspectives ( game situation, ref situation)
But, like the lessons from Cardiff. Need to work out a way to put this back in control. If in first half Peyper was just blowing a homer, then I have no answers. If he's blowing that way because memories of our discipline in Chicago are fresh Etc then that's a fault of ours we can actually do something about. By second half when a first half homer kept penalties piling up and then you compound it with a stupid head high (like Chicago) then we get what we deserve. We're putting something retrievable back beyond our control.
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Our discipline was terrible in Chicago, indefensible, and a major contributor to our defeat.
In Dublin, I was fuming by the end. I just felt we got nothing at ruck-time all game from Peyper. I haven't rewatched the match, but did Ireland concede a single ruck penalty aside from a holding on I can recall? We certainly got pinged at least 3 times in the 2nd half at the ruck. I'm a bit like Hansen I just want consistency, and I felt we didn't get that at the tackle ball/ruck. That is actually my major gripe with his display, not our YCs and the Irish non-YCs.
The good news is we have Wayne Barnes this week.
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