Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown & Dublin Duel
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@Rapido It may be a good result for world rugby, and I emphasis the word may, but why should we be ok or happy about it? It's not our job to prop up world rugby. The bigger nations already have a significant advantage over us in terms of player and financial resources. I wonder if you will be ok with us going back to having a 75% win record rather than the 90% + that we have enjoyed over the last few years? Be careful about what you wish for.
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@akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Rapido It may be a good day for world rugby, and I emphasis the word may, but why should we be ok or happy about it? It's not our job to prop up world rugby. The bigger nations already have a significant advantage over us in terms of player and financial resources. I wonder if you will be ok with us going back to having a 75% win record rather than the 90% + that we have enjoyed over the last few years? Be careful about what you wish for.
Christ. We didn't do it on purpose.
We lost a game, that result is good for the bigger picture of world rugby.
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@KiwiMurph not so sure I agree.
It was a bad day at the office.
The test v Aus was always gonna be a battle, more mental than anything, so is always tough to truly gauge those sorts of thing. The Aussie had tripped us up before, we had been sitting at this precipice before. We had the same issues with the RWC, it wasn't that we werent good enough, the mental side plays a huge part.
I heard Andy Murray say something on the radio yesterday that I thought resounded for the AB team...was something along the lines of after you achieve something great (the record) next time you come out, there is a risk you can be a bit flat.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
I heard Andy Murray say something on the radio yesterday that I thought resounded for the AB team...was something along the lines of after you achieve something great (the record) next time you come out, there is a risk you can be a bit flat.
Absolutely.
Even the 2015 ABs who are the best NZ team I have seen and a contender for best ever - couldn't follow up their quarter final pounding of France, and all the elation and emotional energy released, with a good performance the next week.That 2015 semi was a crap performance by us. ( Was our equivalent of the 2011 final. ) but saved by some old heads dragging us through after other old and young heads spent most of the time fluffing their lines and giving away the dumbest penalties any time they crossed our half.
Then follow it up a week later with a great performance in the final (minus the 10 minutes bad boy Ben spent in the bin foe his stupid foul)
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@akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Rapido You are missing the point. I was having a go at Veitch for being ok about the loss. I honestly don't give a rats arse about whether or not it was a good result for world rugby. From a NZ rugby perspective, it was a bad result.
I'm not missing the point. Why are you not ok with Veitch being ok with the loss?
He isn't player or management.
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@taniwharugby I take your point but I think there can be some criticism of the All Blacks game plan being rather predictable - particularly in attack where our first receiver is almost always wide of the breakdown and we set from there. I didn't notice us try and pick and drive once for example and our kicking game was poor. A lot of this comes down to the halves and improved greatly once Perenara came on. Of course there were other huge issues (lineout, ill discipline etc) but I think a better job could have been down to change the approach earlier in the piece.
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@KiwiMurph said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
I didn't notice us try and pick and drive once for example
I made the same point during the game. I can't remember the last time I saw this in an AB test.
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Surely that points more to an off day than being predictable if we didn't use pick and drive, which we would normally?
As I have said earlier, was a perfect storm of players who couldn't play and key players being off their game.
At this level, being off by just a little is the difference between winning and losing, and we lost.
Don't think we need to hit the panic button yet, if we lose again on tour, we will certainly see the chicken littles go running, quite possibly a good many who were 'bored' of the ABs winning all the time too.
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What does pick n drive achieve though, when done against a defence that doesn't commit many to the breakdown? Ireland, Australia even the Argies aren't throwing huge numbers there and that is probably why we haven't seen much of it this season.
I think structurally we are okay, not perfect and there will be areas to look at. The great thing is that I don't think the coaching staff will be rushing to change all of the hard work. They have all experienced losses before and have found ways to bounce back.
We haven't lost two consecutive for a long time, so I think they will stick to the structures and work out a few different ways to shore up the defence, cut down the errors and send a rocket regarding discipline.
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@taniwharugby I'm not suggesting the ABs need to panic - but I do think there can be some learnings out of it than can be taken on board other than just brushing it off as an off-day - that would be a mistake in my opinion. The good news is we get to play Ireland again so it is the perfect opportunity to see what they have learnt etc.
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@akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@KiwiMurph said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
I didn't notice us try and pick and drive once for example
I made the same point during the game. I can't remember the last time I saw this in an AB test.
We did very little hard running at first receiver either, our plan is to outflank defences with quick passing. Sometimes it pays to straighten the attack, especially as Ireland were rushing up fast
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I get where Sir Brian is coming from but I don't really tactics is the problem so much as the execution. The AB game plan is very simple but horrendously difficult to pull off. Everything has to function as planned and there is very little room for error.
Perhaps the RC heroics have taken their toll and while the mind is willing the body is screaming for a rest? You can't play like that for that long without there being consequences.
This kind of reminds me of the 1997 team. They carved up during the 3N but had very little left in the tank when they went north.
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@KiwiMurph Wise words from probably my favourite AB ever
We didn't just have a bad day at the office - we've had two consecutive bad days, and Ireland were a much higher quality side than Aussie at EP.
No need to push the panic button, but we do need to refocus. Ireland had to play incredibly well to capitalize on our deficiencies and that they did.
They out-played us at our own game so that we were the ones panicking. Definitely bereft of blue heads in that last 10 minutes.
I think this will make the AB's more determined but I disagree that it's simply a matter of the right selections and a better attitude. Ireland were full value for their win and if we don't play as a team, to a plan and put in quality performances across the park, (none of which happened in Chicago), there's every chance they'll only have to wait a fortnight for their second win.
Whilst I'm gutted to lose to any team and particularly to add a 6th nation to those that have beaten us, the anticipation of going into a game where the stakes are suddenly raised is a great feeling.
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"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
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@KiwiMurph and I doubt they will brush it off as an off day either, nor am I suggesting that that was all it was, but we were within a whisker of stealing that game again too, which given how we executed a lot of what we did that day, would have been almost criminal.
Shit happens, we have had a successful formula for years, it will only be minor tweaks to get us rumbling along again, I don't think they need to change much, but this coaching team, right back to SGH have always learnt form their losses and come out stronger, I don't see them resting on their laurels form here either.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel you'd think this weekend is when that rotation will occur.
I hope to see Sopoaga or Cruden start. Romero and possibly Fifita or Luatua at lock.
Dagg to come back and possibly have at fullback with one of Naholo/Savea and introduce Ioane to test rugby.
ALB and Fekitoa. Tamanivalu for bench.
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@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
If you look at Ireland's defence it had plenty of players around the ruck.
They were one-on-one coverage out wide and that's why we tried to move it quickly there with the little ball we had. We got yards out wide on occasions because of it but then made errors or turned it over.
I was impressed with how well the Irish wingers scrambled.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
If you look at Ireland's defence it had plenty of players around the ruck.
They were one-on-one coverage out wide and that's why we tried to move it quickly there with the little ball we had. We got yards out wide on occasions because of it but then made errors or turned it over.
I was impressed with how well the Irish wingers scrambled.
I'm still a fan of some variation. Slightly easier to scramble well when you know exactly what'll be expected of you. Harder when there's at least some variation, and maybe one or two of your inside defenders have taken just one or two steps closer to the ruck.
I wouldn't have them doing pick n go's or crash ball close to the ruck all day either, but there's a place for variation. Especially when you have Kaino as one of your tight forwards to let stuck in when it makes sense. Which circles back to Lochore's comments about predictability.
