NH club rugby
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@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
@stargazer the amusing thing is, that the report speculates 3 more teams would move, names them, which leaves the Bulls to do what? hold the SA flag in Super rugby or try and muscle their way into the NH game too?
Exactly where would they fit in the NH calendar? Probably need a conference system to be able to account for all the teams.
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Worth recalling what Jurie Roux said last year when linkup with PRO14 was announced:
“*The first two years of competing in that [Pro14] league will be tough,' he continued. 'We’re not blind to that. We’re going there with open eyes. But we’re glad that there’s faith in us and that after two years we would have proved ourselves from a sustainability point of view and more importantly from a performance point of view.’
Roux was cagey when asked if the move to Europe would compromise an existing agreement with Sanzaar. The Super Rugby competition may be losing relevance, but the Rugby Championship is still one of the strongest tournaments in the world.
‘We’re still in an agreement with Sanzaar for the next three years. It would be a career-limiting move to make any comment about that now. I’ll give you a diplomatic answer, though. We are committed to Sanzaar until the end of 2020.
‘We are going into a negotiation period. We believe we are strong because we play Australia and New Zealand sides all the time. That relationship has been to the great benefit of SA Rugby for more than 20 years. They’re our partners. We don’t foresee not playing those teams in the future.
‘What we do have is the opportunity to expand in terms of our competitions and horizons. We’re trying to take that. We might hit out with a different structure in future. But not playing in the south in any shape or form… it’s unthinkable, because purely from a financial sustainability point of view, you will suffer.’
The Cheetahs and the Kings won’t be eligible for the European Cup or European Challenge tournaments in the near future. That may change down the line, and a change may encourage other South African teams to join the Pro14.
‘I think in future it would make a lot of sense,’ Pro14 CEO Martin Anayi said. ‘Competition and how well the South African teams do in our league will go a long way towards furthering the argument for Europe*.'
And in another interview in the Telegraph:
*SARU's ambition is to have eight professional franchises in South Africa, two more than the current total, with four of those playing in Super Rugby and another four in Europe.
"I can promise you that if we had more teams to move [into Europe] at this stage then we would do so. There is a massive interest," Roux explained.
"We envisage two more franchises in South African rugby in the near future with the opportunity to play in the north.
"There are only about three or four potential teams who could really [turn professional], based on the criteria of economic feasibility and sustainability, plus whether they have the support base and quality of players."*
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@pot-hale
The big question is where the players and money is coming from for more SA teams to play in Europe. By all accounts SARU is not making more money having 2 teams in the Pro 14. The cost of having these 2 teams are clearly not less than last year. -
@rebound said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale
The big question is where the players and money is coming from for more SA teams to play in Europe. By all accounts SARU is not making more money having 2 teams in the Pro 14. The cost of having these 2 teams are clearly not less than last year.Fair question. The Celtic Rugby DAC Participation Agreement with SARU seems to have come with a TV deal from SuperSport that provided £500k annually to each of the existing PRO12 teams. On a 6-year deal with a mid-term review point. (Hard learnings from bringing in the Italians who still owe money to other PRO12 unions). Presumably the plan is to slowly grow the comp, attract more TV and specific sponsorship (airline deal to cover travel costs for example), and for all five unions to benefit from upside in growth and revenues as shareholders in Celtic Rugby DAC which owns the comp.
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@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale said in NH club rugby:
That is why the likes of Jonathan Davies, Juan Martin Hernandez and John Rutherford, plus one or two others, would lie above Carter in my all-time list in terms of individual greatness. Davies, for example, spent most of his career playing for Wales while waiting in vain for a decent morsel of possession which he could run on to.
This where I stopped reading this ridiculous pile of horse shit.
Outside of this, I'm not sure he says anything that should be viewed as too controversial. Everybody knows that he has a chip about kiwis so there are a couple of the usual shots, but in reality I'm not sure his article is far off the truth.
Carters greatest achievements were test 2 lions 2005 and knockout phase of the 2015 world cup, that can't be denied. He oozed class for the most part in between, but these were certainly his highlights. Would have been as succesful consistently getting rubbish ball behind a backwards pack? Would the likes of Davies, Hernandez, Rutherford (no idea who this guy is) been as highly lauded if playing for the Crusaders and All Blacks?
Fair questions, if you ask me.
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@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale said in NH club rugby:
That is why the likes of Jonathan Davies, Juan Martin Hernandez and John Rutherford, plus one or two others, would lie above Carter in my all-time list in terms of individual greatness. Davies, for example, spent most of his career playing for Wales while waiting in vain for a decent morsel of possession which he could run on to.
This where I stopped reading this ridiculous pile of horse shit.
Outside of this, I'm not sure he says anything that should be viewed as too controversial. Everybody knows that he has a chip about kiwis so there are a couple of the usual shots, but in reality I'm not sure his article is far off the truth.
Carters greatest achievements were test 2 lions 2005 and knockout phase of the 2015 world cup, that can't be denied. He oozed class for the most part in between, but these were certainly his highlights. Would have been as succesful consistently getting rubbish ball behind a backwards pack? Would the likes of Davies, Hernandez, Rutherford (no idea who this guy is) been as highly lauded if playing for the Crusaders and All Blacks?
> Fair questions, if you ask me.
What?
You assume that they would be good enough to be selected for the Crusaders, and the All Blacks, and then selected for more than 10 years, during which time they headed greats (Mehrts, Spencer) with nary a whisper, then saw off a number of good (Donald, Slade, Sops, Barrett, Hill) and world class (Evans, McAlister, Cruden) first fives.
He sure as shit wouldn't have been rejected by Llanelli or needed to fuck off to League, and wouldn't have spent his best years playing as a fullback, and probably would have lead the Lions to victory above the All Blacks, rather than hardly even getting selected! I doubt any of the names that Walrus mentioned would have been consistent enough over 10 years, to be the 1st or 2nd name on the All Black team sheet over that time.
I'd pick him ahead of Barrett now, if I had the chance.
Don't get me wrong, those other players are good, even greats. But, they never even dominated rugby in any way close to the way in which Carter has. So what if he has buttoned off since retiring and going to earn some coin up north?
He is deservedly the best 10 in the modern era (and IMO the second best player ever) because he was at the center of a decade of All Black dominance. Without him, I seriously doubt we would have ever become the team we are now. It's worth remembering that our period of incredible dominance started with him and McCaw arriving at the same time.
So, fuck the Walrus, and that question.
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@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale said in NH club rugby:
That is why the likes of Jonathan Davies, Juan Martin Hernandez and John Rutherford, plus one or two others, would lie above Carter in my all-time list in terms of individual greatness. Davies, for example, spent most of his career playing for Wales while waiting in vain for a decent morsel of possession which he could run on to.
This where I stopped reading this ridiculous pile of horse shit.
Outside of this, I'm not sure he says anything that should be viewed as too controversial. Everybody knows that he has a chip about kiwis so there are a couple of the usual shots, but in reality I'm not sure his article is far off the truth.
Carters greatest achievements were test 2 lions 2005 and knockout phase of the 2015 world cup, that can't be denied. He oozed class for the most part in between, but these were certainly his highlights. Would have been as succesful consistently getting rubbish ball behind a backwards pack? Would the likes of Davies, Hernandez, Rutherford (no idea who this guy is) been as highly lauded if playing for the Crusaders and All Blacks?
> Fair questions, if you ask me.
What?
You assume that they would be good enough to be selected for the Crusaders, and the All Blacks, and then selected for more than 10 years, during which time they headed greats (Mehrts, Spencer) with nary a whisper, then saw off a number of good (Donald, Slade, Sops, Barrett, Hill) and world class (Evans, McAlister, Cruden) first fives.
He sure as shit wouldn't have been rejected by Llanelli or needed to fuck off to League, and wouldn't have spent his best years playing as a fullback, and probably would have lead the Lions to victory above the All Blacks, rather than hardly even getting selected! I doubt any of the names that Walrus mentioned would have been consistent enough over 10 years, to be the 1st or 2nd name on the All Black team sheet over that time.
I'd pick him ahead of Barrett now, if I had the chance.
Don't get me wrong, those other players are good, even greats. But, they never even dominated rugby in any way close to the way in which Carter has. So what if he has buttoned off since retiring and going to earn some coin up north?
He is deservedly the best 10 in the modern era (and IMO the second best player ever) because he was at the center of a decade of All Black dominance. Without him, I seriously doubt we would have ever become the team we are now. It's worth remembering that our period of incredible dominance started with him and McCaw arriving at the same time.
So, fuck the Walrus, and that question.
Speak with anyone who played with or against Davies in either code and you'll see that he had both the skill and the durability to have leapfrogged all but one or two on your list
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@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale said in NH club rugby:
That is why the likes of Jonathan Davies, Juan Martin Hernandez and John Rutherford, plus one or two others, would lie above Carter in my all-time list in terms of individual greatness. Davies, for example, spent most of his career playing for Wales while waiting in vain for a decent morsel of possession which he could run on to.
This where I stopped reading this ridiculous pile of horse shit.
Outside of this, I'm not sure he says anything that should be viewed as too controversial. Everybody knows that he has a chip about kiwis so there are a couple of the usual shots, but in reality I'm not sure his article is far off the truth.
Carters greatest achievements were test 2 lions 2005 and knockout phase of the 2015 world cup, that can't be denied. He oozed class for the most part in between, but these were certainly his highlights. Would have been as succesful consistently getting rubbish ball behind a backwards pack? Would the likes of Davies, Hernandez, Rutherford (no idea who this guy is) been as highly lauded if playing for the Crusaders and All Blacks?
> Fair questions, if you ask me.
What?
You assume that they would be good enough to be selected for the Crusaders, and the All Blacks, and then selected for more than 10 years, during which time they headed greats (Mehrts, Spencer) with nary a whisper, then saw off a number of good (Donald, Slade, Sops, Barrett, Hill) and world class (Evans, McAlister, Cruden) first fives.
He sure as shit wouldn't have been rejected by Llanelli or needed to fuck off to League, and wouldn't have spent his best years playing as a fullback, and probably would have lead the Lions to victory above the All Blacks, rather than hardly even getting selected! I doubt any of the names that Walrus mentioned would have been consistent enough over 10 years, to be the 1st or 2nd name on the All Black team sheet over that time.
I'd pick him ahead of Barrett now, if I had the chance.
Don't get me wrong, those other players are good, even greats. But, they never even dominated rugby in any way close to the way in which Carter has. So what if he has buttoned off since retiring and going to earn some coin up north?
He is deservedly the best 10 in the modern era (and IMO the second best player ever) because he was at the center of a decade of All Black dominance. Without him, I seriously doubt we would have ever become the team we are now. It's worth remembering that our period of incredible dominance started with him and McCaw arriving at the same time.
So, fuck the Walrus, and that question.
Speak with anyone who played with or against Davies in either code and you'll see that he had both the skill and the durability to have leapfrogged all but one or two on your list
I'm not suggesting that he isn't a great player. I saw him play, and I've watched the old stuff when he started out. I'm not suggesting he isn't great.
But, he's no Dan Carter. That's my point.
The Walrus seems to think that he has never earned it, but he moved to Christchurch boys after he made the Sth Island secondary schools team from Ellesmere College - which is the equivalent of fucking nowhere. He's that good. He'd be that good playing for whoever. He didn't make the All Blacks because he was fucking lucky.
That's the missing point here, he is the causative factor for many of the teams being as good as they are.
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Blimey, I thought I might start some reaction here, but didn't quite expect the fly off the handle that I've got here ...
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
You assume that they would be good enough to be selected for the Crusaders, and the All Blacks, and then selected for more than 10 years, during which time they headed greats (Mehrts, Spencer) with nary a whisper, then saw off a number of good (Donald, Slade, Sops, Barrett, Hill) and world class (Evans, McAlister, Cruden) first fives.
How much of Davies, JMH and Rutherford have you seen and did you watch? I don't know the latter at all so can't comment, but Davies was a hell of a player across two codes, many people will talk about him as one of the most gifted they had seen. Of your list of first-5's I'd only put Cruden, Barret & Evans as truly top tier and worth talking about holding off. Mehrts & Spencer were both well approaching use-by when Carter joined the scene, and I'm fairly confident that JMH could well have been selected at this point in time.
He sure as shit wouldn't have been rejected by Llanelli or needed to fuck off to League, and wouldn't have spent his best years playing as a fullback, and probably would have lead the Lions to victory above the All Blacks, rather than hardly even getting selected! I doubt any of the names that Walrus mentioned would have been consistent enough over 10 years, to be the 1st or 2nd name on the All Black team sheet over that time.
You are comparing professional to amateur here - league was professional back then, union wasn't. Thats why Davies moved. Your talk of consistency over 10 years is a fair point, but very few best of lists talk about this. Cullen is mentioned in loads of best-of lists as an example, but he really only had 3 years at the very top. Compare that to Muliaina who was a 10 year plus AB, consistently selected, but he's unlikely to make any best of lists.
I'd pick him ahead of Barrett now, if I had the chance.
Watched must Racing? I wouldn't. He's switched off now and this would be silly.
Don't get me wrong, those other players are good, even greats. But, they never even dominated rugby in any way close to the way in which Carter has. So what if he has buttoned off since retiring and going to earn some coin up north?
This isn't Walrus, or my argument.
He is deservedly the best 10 in the modern era (and IMO the second best player ever) because he was at the center of a decade of All Black dominance. Without him, I seriously doubt we would have ever become the team we are now. It's worth remembering that our period of incredible dominance started with him and McCaw arriving at the same time.
I'd say our greatest period of pure dominance, the 2012-2015 period was more about the team than any one player. Cruden played a lot of this too.
So, fuck the Walrus, and that question.
Agree to the former, but not the latter.
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I’ve watched enough to know that Carter is better. It’s that simple.
I’m not arguing that they weren’t good, or even great, just simply that Carter is significantly better.
You’ve rightly pointed out the difference between the Amateur and professional eras, but it’s not me me who put those together - that was the Walrus and you.
I wonder how many would select Davies ahead of his contemporaries? some good players then - no Lions tour when he was at his best, sadly, but would you pick him above Lynagh, Fox, Andrews? Given what the game was then?
Rutherford couldn’t even break into the Lions team in 1983 (he played inside center), despite being a great player. Even he explained why (I can dig up the interview). Don’t get me wrong, he was super exciting, and helped win a Grand Slam, but couldn’t even get selected for the premier tram of his generation.
And Hernandez played most of his best rugby at 15. Amazing player, vet Barret-esque.
These guys were awesome, but they are simply just not as good as Dan Carter. He’s the most complete 10 of the modern era (and all time IMO) and shouldn’t be judged by his activities since retiring.
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@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@pot-hale said in NH club rugby:
That is why the likes of Jonathan Davies, Juan Martin Hernandez and John Rutherford, plus one or two others, would lie above Carter in my all-time list in terms of individual greatness. Davies, for example, spent most of his career playing for Wales while waiting in vain for a decent morsel of possession which he could run on to.
This where I stopped reading this ridiculous pile of horse shit.
Outside of this, I'm not sure he says anything that should be viewed as too controversial. Everybody knows that he has a chip about kiwis so there are a couple of the usual shots, but in reality I'm not sure his article is far off the truth.
Carters greatest achievements were test 2 lions 2005 and knockout phase of the 2015 world cup, that can't be denied. He oozed class for the most part in between, but these were certainly his highlights. Would have been as succesful consistently getting rubbish ball behind a backwards pack? Would the likes of Davies, Hernandez, Rutherford (no idea who this guy is) been as highly lauded if playing for the Crusaders and All Blacks?
> Fair questions, if you ask me.
What?
You assume that they would be good enough to be selected for the Crusaders, and the All Blacks, and then selected for more than 10 years, during which time they headed greats (Mehrts, Spencer) with nary a whisper, then saw off a number of good (Donald, Slade, Sops, Barrett, Hill) and world class (Evans, McAlister, Cruden) first fives.
He sure as shit wouldn't have been rejected by Llanelli or needed to fuck off to League, and wouldn't have spent his best years playing as a fullback, and probably would have lead the Lions to victory above the All Blacks, rather than hardly even getting selected! I doubt any of the names that Walrus mentioned would have been consistent enough over 10 years, to be the 1st or 2nd name on the All Black team sheet over that time.
I'd pick him ahead of Barrett now, if I had the chance.
Don't get me wrong, those other players are good, even greats. But, they never even dominated rugby in any way close to the way in which Carter has. So what if he has buttoned off since retiring and going to earn some coin up north?
He is deservedly the best 10 in the modern era (and IMO the second best player ever) because he was at the center of a decade of All Black dominance. Without him, I seriously doubt we would have ever become the team we are now. It's worth remembering that our period of incredible dominance started with him and McCaw arriving at the same time.
So, fuck the Walrus, and that question.
Speak with anyone who played with or against Davies in either code and you'll see that he had both the skill and the durability to have leapfrogged all but one or two on your list
I'm not suggesting that he isn't a great player. I saw him play, and I've watched the old stuff when he started out. I'm not suggesting he isn't great.
But, he's no Dan Carter. That's my point.
The Walrus seems to think that he has never earned it, but he moved to Christchurch boys after he made the Sth Island secondary schools team from Ellesmere College - which is the equivalent of fucking nowhere. He's that good. He'd be that good playing for whoever. He didn't make the All Blacks because he was fucking lucky.
That's the missing point here, he is the causative factor for many of the teams being as good as they are.
The key words that slipped by you were 'leapfrogged all but one or two on your list'.
I'd have Carter at No. 1 too, but Davies could have and would have run him close IMHO.
And yes I'd have Davies ahead of Lynagh, Fox and Rob Andrew (if that is who you were referencing)
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@gt12 The amateur vs professional was only used by me to point out why Davies went to league. It's hard to really form a view on if Carter would have gone to league if the same circumstances were applied.
I'm not saying the Walrus is right, btw, I'm just saying that as an opinion piece (which it was), it raises discusses some fair points.
FWIW - I'm not sure how much he believes of what he's written there, and Carter is certainly rightly recognized globally as one of the all time greats.
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It's not just what the Walrus says, it's how he says it as well. He just comes across as a snide prick.
Nonetheless he does ask some pertinent questions namely that in playing for a dominant side a player will look better than if he was in an also ran side. That does not denigrate Carter in anyway IMO but of course because it is the Walrus it does come across that way.
Of the players that he mentions none of them to my mind come close to Carter as a complete 10, even taking into account the differences between the amateur and professional times. Davies was a great player, one of he most skilful and talented ball players of all times. As an attacking 10 there were not many to compare, but his kicking game, defence and game management were nowhere near Carter's standards. JMH was just too flaky to be considered. Great to watch but by the cringe he could fuck things royally. Rutherford was a class act, that he dd not get picked at 10 for the 1983 Lions was down to him being, to a degree the new kid on the block and the incumbent, Ollie Cambell was pretty damn good himself. Rutherford was still good enough to get in at an unfamiliar position though which speaks volumes for the man.
But back to Carter, the Walrus' point that would Carter have been as successful in a team other than NZ is valid but he should also bracket that with the question, would NZ have been as successful without Carter and I think the answer to both of them is probably not. Each enhances the other.
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He's entirely right, most of the Premiership clubs (bar Exeter, my heroes with their mostly home grown championship winning talent) are losing money, being held above water by rich idiots. The exodus to the NH would be much lower if those clubs lived within their means like NZ SR teams are now
Charles Piutau deal 'wrecking' Premiership rugby - Sale boss
Sale Sharks DoR Steve Diamond believes Charles Piutau's record-breaking £1-million per season deal is wrecking Premiership rugby, inflating the value of player contracts too much.
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Been rumours about Wasps finances after the owner injected 1.1m back into the club and falsified* it as profits so that they wouldn't breech the terms of a bond issue taken out when they bought Ricoh Arena and moved to Coventry.
A google search looks quite gloomy,
Dec 21, 2017: Wasps overstates profits amid accounting 'irregularities' - The Telegraph
Dec 21, 2017: Wasps breach rules of £35million bonds schemeDec 22, 2017: Price of Wasps bonds falls after it breaches financial rules of ...
Jan 13, 2018: Wasps seeks bondholders agreement after covenants are breached
Jan 19, 2018: Wasps bondholders agree to waive breaches in financial rules ...
23/03/2018: Wasps Group says accounts will be filed by end of March
13/04/2018: Wasps Group accounts now more than three months late
2/05/2018: PwC offside as Wasps auditor after £1.1m profit overstatement
3/05/2018: Irish owner reveals PwC given 'falsified evidence' in Wasps audit
but .... looks OK?
20 hours ago: Wasps owner slashes losses
The group that owns Premiership rugby club Wasps, who play their home games at Coventry's Ricoh Arena, has slashed its pre-tax losses, according to new figures.
Newly filed accounts with Companies House for Wasps Holdings have revealed that the group made a pre-tax loss of £3.7m in the year to 30 June 2017, down from £9.3m in 2016.
The documents have also confirmed that PwC, during its auditing enquiries, was presented with evidence which was revealed to have been falsified.
Following the presentation of PwC's findings, the board conducted a review of its financial processes, systems and controls across the group.
The directors have said this was an "isolated instance" and "consider that the measures put in place provide additional controls to prevent such an occurrence."
The group, which also owns the Ricoh Arena and a netball team, announced its turnover for the year, a rise from £30.9m to £33.6m, in December 2017.
Regarding the cut in losses, a statement signed off by the board said: "This is a result of returns form our improvements in ticketing, hotel, entertainment and business revenues, together with the non-reoccurrence of exceptional items and bond issue costs.
"The Wasps rugby team performed exceptionally well throughout the year, reaching the Premiership final for the first time since 2008.
"In addition, the newly launched Wasps Netball won the Vitality netball Super League, a wonderful result for the team in its very first year.
"The group continues to seek to maximise its use of the Ricoh. The continued engagement with new fans, businesses, clubs and schools resulted in another year of record attendances for Wasps and business activities at the arena.
"The investment in the DoubleTree by Hilton hotel during 2015/16 provided further significant returns with hotel income up by 29 per cent for the year.
"This year saw us staging a number of events including international rugby league, Robbie Williams in concert, Wasps Netball in the Ericsson Arena and we look forward to hosting more sport and entertainment in the future years."
Bond price:
- allegedly and apparantly ......
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Leinster out-French the French in the Champions Cup final in Bilbao.
Leinster 15-12 Racing92
Yee haa!
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Poxy final decided in multiples of 3. Teddy Thomas with a schoolboy error allowing himself to be bundled into touch after Racing steal the line out. From resulting play Leinster get the winning penalty.
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