All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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That said, the coaching and the selection this year leaves a lot to be desired. For example, if Blackadder hadn't been injured Sititi might not have been saving our bacon, Tele'a looks far better at 14, Cane is treading water, BB isn't consistently good enough even for the 23 IMO, Jordie hasn't improved or even held form, and our captain seems to be one of the quietest on the field.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That said, the coaching and the selection this year leaves a lot to be desired. For example, if Blackadder hadn't been injured Sititi might not have been saving our bacon, Tele'a looks far better at 14, Cane is treading water, BB isn't consistently good enough even for the 23 IMO, Jordie hasn't improved or even held form, and our captain seems to be one of the quietest on the field.
We cant play catch up rugby with Ireland.
Our strongest axis 8-9-10-12 at the moment is probably starting Sititi-Roigard-DMac-ALB. It wont happen though. -
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We are getting pinged in the scrums, and in a 60 second passage Jordan gets hit behind the gain line after another ill advised pass, Sititi regathers and streaks upfield only to combine with Vaii to squander a great chance at a try through poor pass fundamentals
I think if the ABs had scored there is a chance the try would have been disallowed anyway. It looked like the ball came off an AB foot to Sititi who was in front.
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Holy shit we won! How good? Scored some sexy tries. Only let England score one off an intercept.
Bench that we used were mainly really fucking good.Some real positives.
Sititi is some fucking player aye? What an incredible test match. Just a kid starting a test at Twickenham and he was incredible. His defence and ruck work continues to improve to support that run game.
Telea back on the right wing was really fucking good.
Tight forwards worked hard and for the most part held England, though you would say for the majority the standout forwards were in white.
Bench impressive. Tosi came on and was hugely powerful. Patty T immense.
If we can keep it tight we have the individual talent to seize hald moments and score. We led.at half time despite being 2nd best. And we won the game. That's really all that matters? -
But holy shit we made that game far harder than it should have been. Credit to England's defence, they were good at hitting what's in front of them. But that's not hard when the opposition takes every opportunity to kick the ball away.
Fucking beauden Barrett. Can that be the end? Please? Kicking lots is not controlling thr game, it's just giving the ball away. Over and over again.
Ratima struggled to combine with BB as well, huge and repeated breakdowns in communication.
We are a dumb, dumb rugby team scating by on individual talent. So many blatant and stupid penalties. Bad options. Inviting pressure.
For all Sititi is amazing, the other 2 loose forwards are doing nothing. And it is damning for Ardie Savea that cane is probably playing slightly better. 7 and 8 can quietly move on thanks. Maybe Ardie comes back next year after now that he's had his "back from Japan and a bit shit" season. But they are net negatives and the kid next to them is making them look worse.
Vaa'i back to earth a bit today, but he and Barrett were buried in the tough stuff. Starting scrum was ropey, but tighties okay around the park. Lineout went as expected with Aumua forced to play 78.
Our midfield is fucking ordinary. Jordie is not fit (and another dumb player) Ioane is miles out of form. Clark did not.get the ball in space for a long time. Chase another uncontestable kick Caleb.
Playing a better team than England with a better 10.than Smith we don't win today.
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Also I have realised today that coaches don't do anything.
The way the ABs play depend on who is picked not who is coach. DMac is 10? Fast fast, lots of passing lots of phases. BB is 10? Kick everything always.Foster? Robertson? Doesn't matter. Today looked like 2022 all over again.
Also, coaches don't make subs. 7&8 were having poor games, so what do we do? Leave them on for 80 and not even try to do anything different.
You can point to the scoreboard and say it worked, if you want to ignore how much luck that took.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
On that I'll disciplined PoS display, Ireland sand France will chew us up and spit us out. But hopefully we've learnt...
... Yeah rightI dunno. Discipline was utter shite and arguably the worst this year, but that was a huge improvement in the last 40 minutes compared to recent crap served up - we didn't actually go completely to pieces and played really well for at least 10-15 minutes.
#slight sarcasm alert#
Back handed compliments. The bar is so low for the ABs right now....
Our lineout is crap, leadership is crap, composure is crap, discipline is crap, inside backs crap
Still cant wait for the next game. Bring it on.For the most part the line-out was good.
I would like our captain/leadership to be more assertive.
Composure, well they came through pretty well. They shelved the stupid shit around the 60th min mark and won the game in the last 15.
Discipline, copping more than their fair share of shit calls but they have to make adjustments and recognise they're io against it.
Insides need a shift in game plan, 12 is shutting them down so they need to counter that.
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Pat T introduced early. I like this change in subbing tactics, assuming it wasn't injury enforced
Again we lose a shitload of territory when WJ gets caught behind the gain line. Fuck I'm getting sick of saying that...
Shit, intercept try. Smith was up fast, either Cortez was too laboured, or Smith was offside.
At 47 minutes the pop passes and in passes are working well, then BB overcooks his kick. Ugh.
Gardner telling to Poms to stop whinging about a supposed high shot and another infringement that already warranted an advantage. Good stuff
Gardner letting the Poms play us off the ball at ruck time. Patty T having a serious impact with ball in hand
WJ with a bad spilled offload deep in our own half. Just too desperate to force the ball
Clarke gets penalised for a knock down, sensible from Gardner to not give a YC as he was making the tackle. I don't like the Pom players pressing for the YC, this isn't bloody football ya bunch of Neymar's. A shame because the two runs Clarke has made have been telling
The offloads as we hit the line work well. But we need to be more selective when to use it. Too many forced and turned over
Wow. Loved the final 10 minutes. Still lots of errors, but we attacked up the guts, kept the errors down and Telea scored a brilliant solo try. Lots of work ons, but at least we ran a team down in the final quarter to win
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That said, the coaching and the selection this year leaves a lot to be desired. For example, if Blackadder hadn't been injured Sititi might not have been saving our bacon, Tele'a looks far better at 14, Cane is treading water, BB isn't consistently good enough even for the 23 IMO, Jordie hasn't improved or even held form, and our captain seems to be one of the quietest on the field.
We cant play catch up rugby with Ireland.
Our strongest axis 8-9-10-12 at the moment is probably starting Sititi-Roigard-DMac-ALB. It wont happen though.ALB I am losing faith in. The NZ XV midfield looked snappier.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That said, the coaching and the selection this year leaves a lot to be desired. For example, if Blackadder hadn't been injured Sititi might not have been saving our bacon, Tele'a looks far better at 14, Cane is treading water, BB isn't consistently good enough even for the 23 IMO, Jordie hasn't improved or even held form, and our captain seems to be one of the quietest on the field.
We cant play catch up rugby with Ireland.
Our strongest axis 8-9-10-12 at the moment is probably starting Sititi-Roigard-DMac-ALB. It wont happen though.ALB I am losing faith in. The NZ XV midfield looked snappier.
I wouldn't want to gloss over the mistakes our midfielders made today, but in all honesty you could probably put Jesus Christ our lord and saviour outside Beauden Barrett and he wouldn't achieve much of anything.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
On that I'll disciplined PoS display, Ireland sand France will chew us up and spit us out. But hopefully we've learnt...
... Yeah rightI dunno. Discipline was utter shite and arguably the worst this year, but that was a huge improvement in the last 40 minutes compared to recent crap served up - we didn't actually go completely to pieces and played really well for at least 10-15 minutes.
#slight sarcasm alert#
Back handed compliments. The bar is so low for the ABs right now....
Our lineout is crap, leadership is crap, composure is crap, discipline is crap, inside backs crap
Still cant wait for the next game. Bring it on.Definitely a work in progress. I am hoping for a signature win to turn the corner and get an era going.
That's one of two important questions.
(1) When's it going to click, Razor; and
(2) Even when it does, how replicable is it going to be?So we're playing this up-tempo, frenetic style that when we string a few miracle passes together and have the right guys on the end of them, other teams aren't going to live with it.
We're going to score some sexy tries and when we score them in multiples, we likely going to blow someone off the park.
I'm hoping it's going to click next weekend, because I've got a feeling it will need to.
But, this week's error-ridden performance doesn't fill me with confidence. Just about everyone made an error. Most of them made two or three. Some of them made half a dozen. That's got to add up to 50+ errors. A hell of a lot of work-ons to improve this week.
But, I wonder whether this gameplan is confusing ambition with ability. If you've only half a dozen guys who are actually skilled enough to cope with the gameplan, pretty quickly the ball is going to find a guy who's going to throw or drop a shit pass.
And to me, that looks a bit like what's happening at the moment.
Even when we do have a game where the passes stick and we all go "Wow", are we going to be able to back it up next week, and the next? Seems like quite a bit of improvement in ball skills required for just about everyone.
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@Chris-B I thought today's pattern was completely different to the rest of the year. Today wasn't frenetic fast fast, Today was a couple of phases and thrn a kick if nothing opens up. There was little repeated phase play to pressure the defence in to repeated decisions until someone fucks up.
So either we abandoned that plan. Or BB didn't carry out that plan. Or that's the plan if DMac is playing.
So today I didn't see progress, I saw a change.
I'm not sure yet if that's good or bad
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
On that I'll disciplined PoS display, Ireland sand France will chew us up and spit us out. But hopefully we've learnt...
... Yeah rightI dunno. Discipline was utter shite and arguably the worst this year, but that was a huge improvement in the last 40 minutes compared to recent crap served up - we didn't actually go completely to pieces and played really well for at least 10-15 minutes.
#slight sarcasm alert#
Back handed compliments. The bar is so low for the ABs right now....
Our lineout is crap, leadership is crap, composure is crap, discipline is crap, inside backs crap
Still cant wait for the next game. Bring it on.Definitely a work in progress. I am hoping for a signature win to turn the corner and get an era going.
That's one of two important questions.
(1) When's it going to click, Razor; and
(2) Even when it does, how replicable is it going to be?So we're playing this up-tempo, frenetic style that when we string a few miracle passes together and have the right guys on the end of them, other teams aren't going to live with it.
We're going to score some sexy tries and when we score them in multiples, we likely going to blow someone off the park.
I'm hoping it's going to click next weekend, because I've got a feeling it will need to.
But, this week's error-ridden performance doesn't fill me with confidence. Just about everyone made an error. Most of them made two or three. Some of them made half a dozen. That's got to add up to 50+ errors. A hell of a lot of work-ons to improve this week.
But, I wonder whether this gameplan is confusing ambition with ability. If you've only half a dozen guys who are actually skilled enough to cope with the gameplan, pretty quickly the ball is going to find a guy who's going to throw or drop a shit pass.
And to me, that looks a bit like what's happening at the moment.
Even when we do have a game where the passes stick and we all go "Wow", are we going to be able to back it up next week, and the next? Seems like quite a bit of improvement in ball skills required for just about everyone.
we are picking the wrong players for this game plan
BB,Cane,Jordie don't really suit this frantic style we will need speed quick hands and ball playing forwards to pull it off. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris-B I thought today's pattern was completely different to the rest of the year. Today wasn't frenetic fast fast, Today was a couple of phases and thrn a kick if nothing opens up. There was little repeated phase play to pressure the defence in to repeated decisions until someone fucks up.
So either we abandoned that plan. Or BB didn't carry out that plan. Or that's the plan if DMac is playing.
So today I didn't see progress, I saw a change.
I'm not sure yet if that's good or bad
We went somewhat down this path in SA 2. Lots of box kicks which we aren't very good at. Playing 10 man rugby with our 10s doesn't seem like great tactics to me.
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Haven't read the thread (not sure I can be arsed today with the attacking/fluffing of individual players that match threads have descended into these days - will read back over the week) so here's my dump of thoughts I can remember.
I really thought it was going to be two losses from drop goals in two days for NZ test teams.
Thought we were the much better side in the first half and honestly thought we were getting the rough end of the calls. Annoyingly that's what most of my comments are about.
I was disappointed our captain didn't point out the English players were running decoys and that was why we were hitting them off the ball.
On replay looked like BB was tackled in the air by the Eng 6, something you'd expect the TMO would pickup. Especially if it went the other way.
What’s this “allow the access” call by refs? Players don’t need to move out of the way, they just can’t change their line to impede.
In that last 10 minutes Eng killed our ball multiple times and didn't get carded. It goes back down the other end and we get the same player carded twice. Ironically one of the cards was an actual straight up tackle without the ball with the England player not being a decoy. Then Gardner allowed himself to get bullied by his officials team into a card for a call he claimed wasn't foul play. Rugby's legislators seem intent on creating mismatches rather than contests these days - but you only need to read NH comments around the 20m reds to see that fans up there want that in the game.
I'm glad we've ditched playing behind the line so much. We looked better in that first half due to that.
I assume Vai'i was injured? How lucky did the coaches get with Sititi, back up number 8 becomes the 6 we need. Reminds me of Mils in 2003.
Itoje and Smith's tight riding high shorts are funny. It's like they want to play AFL.
Ah well, at least we got the win, played some decent rugby in parts, and it's helped ease my anger over the pathetic Kiwis last night.
Edit: Oh yeah forgot to say, that 20 odd minutes where they muddled up the audio and we got the ref loud and Nisbett quiet was great.
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@Frank said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The Guardian rating
Beauden Barrett Started out always looking to kick but when he started to vary things he found some joy. Not as explosive as he was but still a masterly operator. 8
Absurd.
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@Chris-B I agree. It looks like the ambition to play dazzling, fast and beautiful rugby exceeds the individual abilities of most of the players. It speaks perhaps to a lack of clarity of communication, pragmatism and honesty at the coaching level. Something isn’t working internally, I suspect.
Aside from the messy execution of an overly idealised game plan, I’m also alarmed at the players’ seeming inability to maintain discipline under pressure. This has been going on all year, and may reflect the frustration they feel at the gap between the coaches’ grandiose vision and the reality.
With that in mind, we shouldn’t overlook the distorting factor of money. The Silverlake private equity investment was in an AB brand built on fast, flowing and attacking rugby that is beautiful to watch. Those sort of investors are notoriously impatient, which leaves me thinking Robertson feels he must deliver on that in every game, and those pressures are getting to the players.
What’s needed is a greater sense of pragmatism - of building the strategy around the team, rather than the team around the strategy. I still wonder at what was behind Leon Macdonald’s early exit from the coaching set-up and whether NZ Rugby’s almost panicked early appointment of Robertson has created a culture where people are now frightened to question the boss.
