McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
Another option no matter how people rate him
As I said we need options. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I hope Plummer and Jacomb can come on and be options.
good thing Plummer's been tried in test matches then, so you can see if he steps up or not then /sarc
They can’t really try him on this tour he could get ruined against these teams.
The problem with that being D Mac started against Fiji and Japan to try to give him time to bed in.
So no one else really got a chance as they were giving D Mac all the chances. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
Like D Mac then in your opinion.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
100% incorrect conclusion for me. What happens when you give McKenzie free reign and he knows he is first choice is good play, with structure, as per the Chiefs - and a guy with the confidence to throw attacking passes when they're on.
The Japan game is what you get when you tell McKenzie that a mediocre past-it Beauden Barrett is being preferred to him for the England game - loose as, trying to score a try with every play.
Beauden Barret used to be an amazing athlete, and a really good fullback. He has always been a dogshit first 5, and now with less pace, he's worse than that. He may look calm, but he's looking like that while doing headless chook stuff like defensive bombs, kicking the ball out on the full, chip-kicking the ball away when we need to retain possession etc etc. I guess he's winning on that crucial body language metric. -
@pakman said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Hard to see DMac as a closer in baseball parlance. But undeniably went well against Bok rush, which we haven’t handled well historically.
So, they've picked him on the bench i.e. as a closer... and not picked him to start, to beat the rush defence. Selectorial genius.
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett.
Yeah, maybe you haven't picked up on it since I've been a bit subtle, but that selection is the bit I disagree with.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett.
Yeah, maybe you haven't picked up on it since I've been a bit subtle, but that selection is the bit I disagree with.
Oh I get that point, you subtle no way.
You have made it loud and clear. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it.Oh Mounga lost the spot multiple times, then he threw it away.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
100% incorrect conclusion for me. What happens when you give McKenzie free reign and he knows he is first choice is good play, with structure, as per the Chiefs - and a guy with the confidence to throw attacking passes when they're on.
The Japan game is what you get when you tell McKenzie that a mediocre past-it Beauden Barrett is being preferred to him for the England game - loose as, trying to score a try with every play.
Beauden Barret used to be an amazing athlete, and a really good fullback. He has always been a dogshit first 5, and now with less pace, he's worse than that. He may look calm, but he's looking like that while doing headless chook stuff like defensive bombs, kicking the ball out on the full, chip-kicking the ball away when we need to retain possession etc etc. I guess he's winning on that crucial body language metric.Except that he was gioven the keys to the kingdom and has been distinctly average 'mercurial' in Razor's words. The top player is never going to play every match and the one match BB played he actually had control, although that's about it. We don't need pizzaz from first fives, we need control, which has been lacking for years in tests.
When DMac get's the chance to prove he's the one, he really shits the bed in Japan, which was a dire performance.
I don't want BB at ten, but I don't want DMac either, he had 8 or 9 games in row to grip it, and didn't. As mentioned above the shit thing is no one else was tried versus the minnows
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it.Oh Mounga lost the spot multiple times, then he threw it away.
no he started v SA in 2022 and kept it through the WC final.
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I would have kept DM at 10. We now have a 10, 12 and 13 who strengths do not include putting people into space.
And I have no problem with Razor wanting RM. We need more options.
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Nothing about Barrett's game has ever screamed 'calm'. He does stupid stuff all the time. Look at him kicking the ball away twice with about 90 seconds to go at the end of one of the Boks matches when NZ needed to score to win. Barrett is as much a headless chook as McKenzie.
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Dmac has been great all year and pretty much responsible for 90% of any of our good attacking play.
For the first time in years we were getting AROUND the rush defense that we have struggled with since 2017.
The Japan game is an anomaly. No surprise he has his shittest game all year the week they had clearly told him Beauden would be preferred for the England game.
I can only hope he gets the 10 jersey back for Ireland/France because I've already seen how Beauden runs our attack against these northern teams for half a decade now. (hint: not good)
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it.Oh Mounga lost the spot multiple times, then he threw it away.
no he started v SA in 2022 and kept it through the WC final.
Well he was first picked for the ABs in 2017, first start in 2018, was given the reigns in 2019 - but if you want to ignore all of that and start the clock halfway through 2022 then sure mate, bang on.
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@Chris genuine question - you're really going hard for Mo'unga at 10. What do you see in him that we're missing?
As you say, it's like we're seeing different players. I know you're hooked into the CHC mafia, but do you really rate Mo'unga that highly?
And the thing I really can't figure out is why he left, knowing that one of his biggest fans would be takign the reins. It staggers me; did he not like the AB environment?
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Mo'unga's game list is in the link below
Started 6 games in 20 (truncated season with Covid)
7 games in 21
8 in 22
9 games in 23
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