All Blacks 2024
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Nah senior players set standards. Senior players doing carries way more weight than coaches talking.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
Agreed and Cane is probably a great guy to do that. But it's bloody worrying we still shipped points like confetti when he was playing and setting standards.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.I don't think this South Africa team is as good as they are being made out.
They are doing a lot of things right, but I think most Allblack sides from 2004-2016 would deal with them handily.
They know their assignment. They have harmony in the camp. Their coach plays a blinder with the media and refs. They are developing depth as they win.
But they have also gamed a lot of the fringe laws and etiquettes of the game. Bogey HIA's, time wasting, strategic injuries. Physios and water carriers on the pitch at inopportune moments. Players feigning injuries and asking Siya to get the ref to check it (im looking at you Marx and Le Roux).
This Allblack vintage is pure dysfunctional muck and South Africa are only beating them by less than a score.
South Africa doesnt really blow anyone away.
They are up against the worst NZ and worst Aussie sides of recent times, and lost to Argentina.
Are they the best team on the circuit at the moment? Probably.
But in the land of the blind the one eyed man is King.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.I don't think this South Africa team is as good as they are being made out.
They are doing a lot of things right, but I think most Allblack sides from 2004-2016 would deal with them handily.
They know their assignment. They have harmony in the camp. Their coach plays a blinder with the media and refs. They are developing depth as they win.
But they have also gamed a lot of the fringe laws and etiquettes of the game. Bogey HIA's, time wasting, strategic injuries. Physios and water carriers on the pitch at inopportune moments. Players feigning injuries and asking Siya to get the ref to check it (im looking at you Marx and Le Roux).
This Allblack vintage is pure dysfunctional muck and South Africa are only beating them by less than a score.
South Africa doesnt really blow anyone away.
They are up against the worst NZ and worst Aussie sides of recent times, and lost to Argentina.
Are they the best team on the circuit at the moment? Probably.
But in the land of the blind the one eyed man is King.
I think what they do well is execute the basics to the highest of standards, and that tends to serve you well in high pressure scenarios.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Agree, though I'm a bit hesitant to annoint Roigard until I see him play a few games post-injury.
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Agree, though I'm a bit hesitant to annoint Roigard until I see him play a few games post-injury.
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers.The potential upside of trying out a guy like Hoskins far outweighs any downside. In fact there is no downside. Those who point to his earlier efforts in black as justification for non selection should remember other back rowers who matured and regained their spot in the AB squad after a few years away. Rodders springs to mind
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers
Exactly this. Meanwhile we've struggled to score points from the bench nearly all season
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers
Exactly this. Meanwhile we've struggled to score points from the bench nearly all season
That was my contention about Roigard in the RWC final among other selections.
Go out and make them worried about what your lads can do.
Thats why I like Jordan at fullback. Yeah you get people saying "he cant defend", "he is terrible under the high ball" etc. But they are shaking like shitting labradors when he has the ball in 20 meters of space.....a fear that "safe pair of hands" Beaudy doesnt instil in any opposition any more.
We need to be the team posing the questions, not answering the oppositions.
Instead we select out of fear of what could go wrong, and how do we deal with what the opposition has.
Its a beta mindset for want of a better word.
Defeatist.
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Our biggest fault by far in recent seasons has been selecting underperforming senior incumbents.
Not playing Roigard at the end stages of the WC is one example.
However the guard is changing so a new chapter has been opened.
7 and 12-13 needs some bravery to trial options. -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Those players are no longer there. Take out TJ and Sam and the median number of caps in the squad is 28. Few players there are leaders and long term members. I think it's eminently sensible to have a halfback with his experience guide two blokes who are wet behind the ears. The only other loose forward with any real time up is Ardie Savea.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
And IDGAF that Sam was given a red card in the final - that's on Barnes and his bullshit inconsistent refereeing.
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Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
TJ can't even reliably exit the ball without getting charged down. We need players who can perform the basics reliably like complete a tackle or not get their box kicks charged down or not get offside with the ref every match
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Barnes previously adjudicated an "absorbing tackle" was only worth a yellow card. Sam's tackle on Kriel was an absorbing tackle with a late change of direction at low speed.
I'm tired of explaining this and don't consider it relevant.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
Neither are halfbacks or loose forwards. One isn't captain in his own team and the other is in and out of the squad.
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
In your opinion. I happen to think that not having them in the squad and replacing them with newbies isn't the panacea you're hoping it will be.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
But they will be and probably starting the big games, I reckon. I disagree with that, but that is what I think will happen
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It's not about being a solution to the immediate issue of losing against the top teams. It's about developing younger talent. Most of the young guys have been very good this year. It's a wasted development opportunity.
