B&I Lions 2017
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@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
On the revenue sharing, I think the NH unions could assist more with the marketing of some of the games in the SH. Yes some of the stadia are smaller, particularly if a union like NZ want to move it around from Eden Park to Forsyth Barr to Wellington, etc. One solution may be to insist on a minimum stadium size for test matches involving revenue sharing. That size would have to be set at around the 50k mark, I think. Lansdowne is only 51k. Ticketing and marketing also need to be improved. And there probably should be shared opportunities for shifting of merchandising. The Irl v NZ match in Chicago in November is a good example where both teams can tap into the local market on different bases and appeal - both should make money from the venture.
You also have to consider the other 2 markets in Australia and South Africa. Neither England or Ireland were "pumped", but the crowds weren't exceptional either. Marketing and promotion of these tests needs to be improved. And if they continue to be promoted in some quarters as quasi-friendly, warm up matches for the real thing - Rugby Championship, then I'm not surprised the crowds aren't turning up.
The World Rugby voting structure has changed - this year. Moving from 28 to 40 voting members:
8 foundation unions remain with 2 votes each
Now, Argentina, Italy and Canada have two votes each as well.
Georgia, Romania and US now have a voting seat each at the table, joining Japan.
Regional associations have been given an extra vote each - 6 x 2 votes. -
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Lastly, I was wrong about the first match being 5 days after the finals - it's 7 days. So that's all right then. The Lions should win the entire series now......
The 1st test on recent tours to NZ by England, France and Wales have all been affected by player unavailability due to NH finals (in Eng and France mainly) so it's not a recent problem, nor is it solely restricted to a Lions tour.
BTW, the team the LIons play first up is going to be the weakest team (by far) on the tour schedule. If the Lions lose that game they might as well head back to the airport.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
On the revenue sharing, I think the NH unions could assist more with the marketing of some of the games in the SH. Yes some of the stadia are smaller, particularly if a union like NZ want to move it around from Eden Park to Forsyth Barr to Wellington, etc. One solution may be to insist on a minimum stadium size for test matches involving revenue sharing. That size would have to be set at around the 50k mark, I think. Lansdowne is only 51k. Ticketing and marketing also need to be improved. And there probably should be shared opportunities for shifting of merchandising. The Irl v NZ match in Chicago in November is a good example where both teams can tap into the local market on different bases and appeal - both should make money from the venture.
You also have to consider the other 2 markets in Australia and South Africa. Neither England or Ireland were "pumped", but the crowds weren't exceptional either. Marketing and promotion of these tests needs to be improved. And if they continue to be promoted in some quarters as quasi-friendly, warm up matches for the real thing - Rugby Championship, then I'm not surprised the crowds aren't turning up.
The World Rugby voting structure has changed - this year. Moving from 28 to 40 voting members:
8 foundation unions remain with 2 votes each
Now, Argentina, Italy and Canada have two votes each as well.
Georgia, Romania and US now have a voting seat each at the table, joining Japan.
Regional associations have been given an extra vote each - 6 x 2 votes.The fuck did Canada do to get two votes? Japan deserves it far more, at least they've got a professional comp and Super team.
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Jamie Cudmore asked them nicely....
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@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
In 2013 Super Rugby games were played concurrently with the beginning of the Lions Tour. What is the faux outrage from the host union. I don't really understand your argument? You were earlier arguing that the series favoured us and it was a ten match series because of Steve Tew and now Tew and our media are outraged about it?
I think the justification for the 3 match series were that it would be a return to meaningful tours. A one off game just doesn't mean that much. I don't know about revenue but as a rugby fan, I prefer the tours.
As to the global season, I'm ambivalent. Stopping Super Rugby works fantastically well for me. I like that it breaks up the test season for us. If the NH wants to change their calendar they should have at it. I think our calendar is fine.
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@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
In 2013 Super Rugby games were played concurrently with the beginning of the Lions Tour. What is the faux outrage from the host union. I don't really understand your argument? You were earlier arguing that the series favoured us and it was a ten match series because of Steve Tew and now Tew and our media are outraged about it?
I think the justification for the 3 match series were that it would be a return to meaningful tours. A one off game just doesn't mean that much. I don't know about revenue but as a rugby fan, I prefer the tours.
As to the global season, I'm ambivalent. Stopping Super Rugby works fantastically well for me. I like that it breaks up the test season for us. If the NH wants to change their calendar they should have at it. I think our calendar is fine.
Yep that about sums it up.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
This is a strange post. I don't think there's any outrage from nzr or the nz media on the makeup of the tour. Everyone I've spoken to is looking forward to it, and we hope that the UK and Ireland are too.
Anything less than 10 games would be incredibly disappointing - of course all the Super teams + the Maoris should get a game. Including the Barbarians is really a warm up to the tour and for the Lions sole benefit.
As for 3 test June series, this seems to be working well for us. I assumed it was ok for the NH as well, but happy to be corrected. Got to be better than one off games, surely? Some more tour games would be good too, but after the Wales - Chiefs game this year I suspect we've seen the last of them.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Jamie Cudmore asked them nicely....
That reminds me I really must try and find some of his wine on my trip to Europe next year....
![alt text]http://www.domainedecudmore.com/uploads/1/1/6/0/11608633/1407060226.jpg(image url)
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I love this shot of Gatland watching:
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@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
Can't he just watch it as a normal fan and not wear the obnoxious tracky and draw attention to himself ? he's just asking for unwanted attention dressing in that way.
He's just asking for every aspect of his trip home to NZ to be paid for & fly 1st class both ways dressing that way...
On a related note, Jimmy Goperth scored the winning try for Wasps this weekend
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@gollum said in B&I Lions 2017:
He's just asking for every aspect of his trip home to NZ to be paid for & fly 1st class both ways dressing that way...
A smart move! BTW Gatland wasn't wearing his Lions jacket when Smith interviewed him pre-game.
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It appears that the discussion on the new "global season" has reached a compromised solution.
SANZAAR gets the mid-year tests shifted to July, and the NH seasons will now start later and finish in June.
Agreement that no mid-year tests to be held in the year following a RWC, which, if memory serves, tends to be the best time for NH to get wins down south.
Super Rugby comp will now be able to run uninterrupted.
Six Nations won't move due to England and France holding sway so PRO12 plans to have a shorter league season that finishes in March are now buggered.
Lions tour in 2021 will now be held in July and August apparently.
This is the heads of a draft agreement to be signed off at next pow-wow in November.
Nothing reported on revenue-sharing issue. Japan and US/Canada will get more Tier 1 opposition in the new WR Test Schedule for 2020 onwards.
