NZ First Five Crisis
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Agree, it's a crisis that has been building for a long time. I was surprised to see a japanese player playing 10 for Canterbury the other day. If Canterbury don't have someone coming through the Crusader academy, it's a bit concerning.
I think a major issue in NZ rugby is treating almost every 10 in the country as a 10/15 hybrid and thinking that game time at 15 will prepare them for games at 10.
Then when young players get the opportunity at 10, they are unprepared for the lack of time and space.I think young players need to be given time to settle into becoming good 10s. Watching Plummer this season was a great example of that, even though he has been moved around more than most, with some consistent time there he was able to shine.
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I agree there is a shortage, but I think we're better off with McKenzie than Mo'unga. One puts players into gaps, the other hides in the second line and looks for running opportunities for himself (see also Barrett, B). Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect to be proven right by next year.
Plummer has improved a massive amount this year. McKenzie likewise is night and day from a couple of years ago. You need to play 10 to get good at it, and the time and space reduces every level you go up. It takes everyone except the greats (Carter, Mehrtens) quite a bit of game time to get used to that.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
How is there no future in Harry Plummer?
He just turned 26 and is in career best form
Isn't he the ideal transition 10 option whilst these youngsters take a year or two to be ready?
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@KiwiMurph said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
How is there no future in Harry Plummer?
He just turned 26 and is in career best form
Isn't he the ideal transition 10 option whilst these youngsters take a year or two to be ready?
By no future I mean he is at best a stop gap option. He is not the long term solution - not to say that Millar or Jacomb are either, which is kind of the whole problem I am getting at.
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@Kirwan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
We won’t know if Plummer is an option unless he’s tried.
Sure... but he hasn't exactly ripped up Super Rugby like the elite 10s did. I think it is possible Plummer is better than McKenzie, but that is not a high bar.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@KiwiMurph said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
How is there no future in Harry Plummer?
He just turned 26 and is in career best form
Isn't he the ideal transition 10 option whilst these youngsters take a year or two to be ready?
By no future I mean he is at best a stop gap option. He is not the long term solution - not to say that Millar or Jacomb are either, which is kind of the whole problem I am getting at.
Things can change very quickly
In 2009 Cruden was a star U20s player
In 2010 Cruden got a taste of test action but it was too much too soon
In 2011 Cruden really made strides under Rennie at the Turbos and came through with the goods at the RWC in his fleeting chance
In 2012 Cruden was a fully transformed world class operator at 10.
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@foobaNZ said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I think Jacomb has a big future.
And extremely early days / showing my Lions bias, but Harkin for Wellington has been very good (ignore our rather brain dead selectors picking JGB over him). He has a massive boot and a nice running game.
Going to need to see these guys doing it at SR level... a few weeks ago James White was the next big thing and now he can't even make the Canterbury bench.
Big issue for Jacomb, is he is going to be behind McKenzie... would have been far more preferable for him to end up at the Canes or Crusaders.
Will Harkin get a Canes contract?
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@KiwiMurph said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@KiwiMurph said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
How is there no future in Harry Plummer?
He just turned 26 and is in career best form
Isn't he the ideal transition 10 option whilst these youngsters take a year or two to be ready?
By no future I mean he is at best a stop gap option. He is not the long term solution - not to say that Millar or Jacomb are either, which is kind of the whole problem I am getting at.
Things can change very quickly
In 2009 Cruden was a star U20s player
In 2010 Cruden got a taste of test action but it was too much too soon
In 2011 Cruden really made strides under Rennie at the Turbos and came through with the goods at the RWC in his fleeting chance
In 2012 Cruden was a fully transformed world class operator at 10.
Yep that's the hope. This gets at my point with Plummer though - generally speaking, star first fives just shoot through at a young age. Jacomb even is 23 (obviously not old, but not a young starlet either).
Is Rico Simpson that guy? Big issue again, is he is parked behind Barrett, Plummer, Perofeta and Sullivan at the Blues.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Kirwan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
We won’t know if Plummer is an option unless he’s tried.
Sure... but he hasn't exactly ripped up Super Rugby like the elite 10s did. I think it is possible Plummer is better than McKenzie, but that is not a high bar.
He was a key reason the Blues won the comp. I don’t care if the ten is making breaks if he’s setting up his backline and kicking well.
We’ve been spoiled by Carlos, Merhts and even the poor mans Carlos Mounga. Might just need a player with strong basics that makes good decisions and get the flair elsewhere.
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@Kirwan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Kirwan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
We won’t know if Plummer is an option unless he’s tried.
Sure... but he hasn't exactly ripped up Super Rugby like the elite 10s did. I think it is possible Plummer is better than McKenzie, but that is not a high bar.
He was a key reason the Blues won the comp. I don’t care if the ten is making breaks if he’s setting up his backline and kicking well.
We’ve been spoiled by Carlos, Merhts and even the poor mans Carlos Mounga. Might just need a player with strong basics that makes good decisions and get the flair elsewhere.
I think they can run the status quo against lesser teams, but the way the game is being played against the top teams its different.
For me this is also why our exits have been poor for years.
Who would have thought a Grant Fox would be popular again!
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@foobaNZ said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I think Jacomb has a big future.
And extremely early days / showing my Lions bias, but Harkin for Wellington has been very good (ignore our rather brain dead selectors picking JGB over him). He has a massive boot and a nice running game.
Going to need to see these guys doing it at SR level... a few weeks ago James White was the next big thing and now he can't even make the Canterbury bench.
Big issue for Jacomb, is he is going to be behind McKenzie... would have been far more preferable for him to end up at the Canes or Crusaders.
Will Harkin get a Canes contract?
I'm really hoping Harkin gets a Canes contract, he's strong for his size, he's a sound defender, has a big boot on him and he has poise reminiscent of a young Aaron Cruden. The fact Wellington have JGB higher in the pecking order is baffling. Harkin needs to be top 10, because 1. he's by far the better player and 2. we don't want him signing over in Japan.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Think this deserves its own thread. New Zealand's first five stocks are the worst they have been in quite some time.
ABs went from Fox to Mehrtens to Carter to Barrett to Mo'unga over a period of 40 years, so no doubt we were spoilt, but think it is getting a bit concerning.
Outside of those guys, we have had the likes of Cruden, Slade, Spencer etc. who filled in intermittently and were still some of the world's best. Even a guy like Lima Sopoaga played only 16 tests - maybe I'm looking at it through Highlanders tinted glasses, but I think if you take his form from 2014-2017, he'd walk into the 10 jersey?
Currently we have DMac, who just is not there is a starting All Blacks first five. Is he the best we have got? Yes, but not a chance are we winning a World Cup with him at 10. A next best option? A 33 year old Beauden Barrett who hasn't been a trusted ABs first five in over half a decade. Our third best option? Harry Plummer...
In 2015, we went to the World Cup with Carter, Barrett and Slade, leaving an injured Cruden and Sopoaga at home - I'd argue that is five better 10s then we have now!
The big concern, is that there isn't much on the horizon. Outside of the current mob, you have Perofeta, Love, Sullivan (all provably better at 15) and Cameron (Not up to it).
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
When Grant Fox retired, who was the readily apparent next guy up?
How many World Cups did Andrew Mehrtens win?
We nearly won a World Cup with Mo'unga, who is and was absolutely no great shakes.Mentioning Colin Slade in the same breath as fucking Carter, Mehrts, Fox and Carlos is ridiculous.
DMac right now is as good at 10 as Barrett ever was, both instinct footballers. Dmac probably has a better passing game, but Barrett in that "world player of the year" period used to pull off the most outrageous shit. Not classic 10 stuff either.
Plummer looks okay but we aren't going to know because he can't get a gig because the ghost of BBarrett keeps being named as the backup 10.
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I think there is over reaction in the comments on this thread. Plummer looks v good and has good future value. DMac creates lots of opportunities. Jacomb could well be our future. BB is still v good. Perofeta Cameron and Millar can all do the job at super level.
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@ARHS said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Cameron
Too an extent, when the pressure comes on he's hopeless.
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There were only 13 tests between Fox and Mehrts - but it seemed like an eternity.
Do people think Fox would get a look in today? I doubt he'd make Super Rugby TBH. Doesn't fit NZ DNA and therein lies the problem. Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
