Springboks vs All Blacks I
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@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew personally, I think the issue the ABs face is a systemic one. When they were dominant between 2005 to 2016/7, the ABs trained the players to be explosive and athletic. Not as much time spent in the gym becoming inflexible. This suited the laws as they were implemented at the time (for the most part).
Fast forward to the last 6 years, and look at the teams that have been in the ascendancy - SA, Ireland and France. Of these, the Irish are probably most like the ABs in terms of how the players are conditioned, but they have selected more big ball carriers than the ABs in certain positions (front row, no 8, 12) that has allowed them to control the gainline, IMO.
SA have de Allende and Esterhuizen at 12. France have a queue of large juggernauts at 12.
I like Jordie Barrett, but he is no Nonu, or SBW. Yet at least.
The ABs under McCaw had a strong scrum, were ultra efficient at line out time and collectively strong when competing at the breakdown to provide lightning fast ball in the early phases of possession to stress defences (yes, even rush defences a la Boks under White). The forwards sometimes gained ascendancy, but more often tied up opposing forward packs to allow the potency of their back line to wreak havoc. I think the current crop of AB forwards are capable of the same. Question is, can the back line use the ball and space they are provided with well enough? If not, the drums will beat louder for more power runners up front which will require a change of personnel and/or a change of conditioning for the players to be less athletic and more powerful.
Another systemic issue is player development. We haven't been great at U20 for a fair few years either. The AB XV is a move forward though, and I like the way Robertson is working with the SR teams (even if it involves Havili..)
It's good to see the likes of Ratima, Darry, Sititi and Proctor coming thru. Can understand Robertson not using them in game's like today's but hope he has the space and confidence to use them more in this RC
I dunno, I kinda feel like we used to be so dominant at age grade just due to the growing up with a rugby ball in your hands thing plus extra fitness, but were never really physically dominant, the physical growth tended to come later.
What with age grade academies in the rest of the world now, that aspect is dulled and the earlier physical development comes to the fore, something it seems NZ rugby doesn't push until a later age anyway, which is fine by me.
Other countries have caught up for sure on age grade stuff, but I think we've missed a trick on the player development side of things. Whether is co-ordination, a national plan not being good enough or lack of opportunities to test players, I don't know.
I also worry about the mental side of things and player discipline.
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@W32 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
The springboks are a different team with a different coach since the last time these two met. It's going to be fascinating to watch.
not just the Springboks!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew personally, I think the issue the ABs face is a systemic one. When they were dominant between 2005 to 2016/7, the ABs trained the players to be explosive and athletic. Not as much time spent in the gym becoming inflexible. This suited the laws as they were implemented at the time (for the most part).
Fast forward to the last 6 years, and look at the teams that have been in the ascendancy - SA, Ireland and France. Of these, the Irish are probably most like the ABs in terms of how the players are conditioned, but they have selected more big ball carriers than the ABs in certain positions (front row, no 8, 12) that has allowed them to control the gainline, IMO.
SA have de Allende and Esterhuizen at 12. France have a queue of large juggernauts at 12.
I like Jordie Barrett, but he is no Nonu, or SBW. Yet at least.
The ABs under McCaw had a strong scrum, were ultra efficient at line out time and collectively strong when competing at the breakdown to provide lightning fast ball in the early phases of possession to stress defences (yes, even rush defences a la Boks under White). The forwards sometimes gained ascendancy, but more often tied up opposing forward packs to allow the potency of their back line to wreak havoc. I think the current crop of AB forwards are capable of the same. Question is, can the back line use the ball and space they are provided with well enough? If not, the drums will beat louder for more power runners up front which will require a change of personnel and/or a change of conditioning for the players to be less athletic and more powerful.
Another systemic issue is player development. We haven't been great at U20 for a fair few years either. The AB XV is a move forward though, and I like the way Robertson is working with the SR teams (even if it involves Havili..)
It's good to see the likes of Ratima, Darry, Sititi and Proctor coming thru. Can understand Robertson not using them in game's like today's but hope he has the space and confidence to use them more in this RC
I dunno, I kinda feel like we used to be so dominant at age grade just due to the growing up with a rugby ball in your hands thing plus extra fitness, but were never really physically dominant, the physical growth tended to come later.
What with age grade academies in the rest of the world now, that aspect is dulled and the earlier physical development comes to the fore, something it seems NZ rugby doesn't push until a later age anyway, which is fine by me.
Other countries have caught up for sure on age grade stuff, but I think we've missed a trick on the player development side of things. Whether is co-ordination, a national plan not being good enough or lack of opportunities to test players, I don't know.
Regarding player development you are right, it's much better for young players in the NH because they play more rugby, look at the growth of guys like Mack Hansen after leaving Aus and playing a full season of URC and Champions/Challenge Cup, etc. Super Rugby is too short.
Their U20's play more rugby than us in the NH as well.
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@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew personally, I think the issue the ABs face is a systemic one. When they were dominant between 2005 to 2016/7, the ABs trained the players to be explosive and athletic. Not as much time spent in the gym becoming inflexible. This suited the laws as they were implemented at the time (for the most part).
Fast forward to the last 6 years, and look at the teams that have been in the ascendancy - SA, Ireland and France. Of these, the Irish are probably most like the ABs in terms of how the players are conditioned, but they have selected more big ball carriers than the ABs in certain positions (front row, no 8, 12) that has allowed them to control the gainline, IMO.
SA have de Allende and Esterhuizen at 12. France have a queue of large juggernauts at 12.
I like Jordie Barrett, but he is no Nonu, or SBW. Yet at least.
The ABs under McCaw had a strong scrum, were ultra efficient at line out time and collectively strong when competing at the breakdown to provide lightning fast ball in the early phases of possession to stress defences (yes, even rush defences a la Boks under White). The forwards sometimes gained ascendancy, but more often tied up opposing forward packs to allow the potency of their back line to wreak havoc. I think the current crop of AB forwards are capable of the same. Question is, can the back line use the ball and space they are provided with well enough? If not, the drums will beat louder for more power runners up front which will require a change of personnel and/or a change of conditioning for the players to be less athletic and more powerful.
Another systemic issue is player development. We haven't been great at U20 for a fair few years either. The AB XV is a move forward though, and I like the way Robertson is working with the SR teams (even if it involves Havili..)
It's good to see the likes of Ratima, Darry, Sititi and Proctor coming thru. Can understand Robertson not using them in game's like today's but hope he has the space and confidence to use them more in this RC
I dunno, I kinda feel like we used to be so dominant at age grade just due to the growing up with a rugby ball in your hands thing plus extra fitness, but were never really physically dominant, the physical growth tended to come later.
What with age grade academies in the rest of the world now, that aspect is dulled and the earlier physical development comes to the fore, something it seems NZ rugby doesn't push until a later age anyway, which is fine by me.
Yeah, I'm not concerned, we finished 3rd at this year's World Championships, Argentina were 6th, Australia were 8th, and South Africa 7th.
We are only behind France and England at U20 level which is expected - they have the resources and playing numbers to be there consistently. SA should but they have been poor at U20 level for more than several years... and yet people crow on here that we're so shit with our 2015, 2017 U20 WC winners and multiple Bronze medal finishes?
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@darylmitchell said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew personally, I think the issue the ABs face is a systemic one. When they were dominant between 2005 to 2016/7, the ABs trained the players to be explosive and athletic. Not as much time spent in the gym becoming inflexible. This suited the laws as they were implemented at the time (for the most part).
Fast forward to the last 6 years, and look at the teams that have been in the ascendancy - SA, Ireland and France. Of these, the Irish are probably most like the ABs in terms of how the players are conditioned, but they have selected more big ball carriers than the ABs in certain positions (front row, no 8, 12) that has allowed them to control the gainline, IMO.
SA have de Allende and Esterhuizen at 12. France have a queue of large juggernauts at 12.
I like Jordie Barrett, but he is no Nonu, or SBW. Yet at least.
The ABs under McCaw had a strong scrum, were ultra efficient at line out time and collectively strong when competing at the breakdown to provide lightning fast ball in the early phases of possession to stress defences (yes, even rush defences a la Boks under White). The forwards sometimes gained ascendancy, but more often tied up opposing forward packs to allow the potency of their back line to wreak havoc. I think the current crop of AB forwards are capable of the same. Question is, can the back line use the ball and space they are provided with well enough? If not, the drums will beat louder for more power runners up front which will require a change of personnel and/or a change of conditioning for the players to be less athletic and more powerful.
Another systemic issue is player development. We haven't been great at U20 for a fair few years either. The AB XV is a move forward though, and I like the way Robertson is working with the SR teams (even if it involves Havili..)
It's good to see the likes of Ratima, Darry, Sititi and Proctor coming thru. Can understand Robertson not using them in game's like today's but hope he has the space and confidence to use them more in this RC
I dunno, I kinda feel like we used to be so dominant at age grade just due to the growing up with a rugby ball in your hands thing plus extra fitness, but were never really physically dominant, the physical growth tended to come later.
What with age grade academies in the rest of the world now, that aspect is dulled and the earlier physical development comes to the fore, something it seems NZ rugby doesn't push until a later age anyway, which is fine by me.
Other countries have caught up for sure on age grade stuff, but I think we've missed a trick on the player development side of things. Whether is co-ordination, a national plan not being good enough or lack of opportunities to test players, I don't know.
Regarding player development you are right, it's much better for young players in the NH because they play more rugby, look at the growth of guys like Mack Hansen after leaving Aus and playing a full season of URC and Champions/Challenge Cup, etc. Super Rugby is too short.
Their U20's play more rugby than us in the NH as well.
School kids here play for their club and their school. Our vets team play in a lower league and we introduce academy players to senior rugby via that, alongside ex prem players - so yeah the system is definitely better here, plus sheer numbers and funding help.
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@darylmitchell said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
We are really only behind France and England at U20 level which is expected - they have the resources and playing numbers to be there consistently. SA should but they have been poor at U20 level for more than several years... and yet people crow on here that we're so shit with our 2015, 2017 U20 WC winners and multiple Bronze finalists.
The question is, with all that U20 talent, are we getting the best out of it?
Pretty sure we're not and haven't for some time.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew personally, I think the issue the ABs face is a systemic one. When they were dominant between 2005 to 2016/7, the ABs trained the players to be explosive and athletic. Not as much time spent in the gym becoming inflexible. This suited the laws as they were implemented at the time (for the most part).
Fast forward to the last 6 years, and look at the teams that have been in the ascendancy - SA, Ireland and France. Of these, the Irish are probably most like the ABs in terms of how the players are conditioned, but they have selected more big ball carriers than the ABs in certain positions (front row, no 8, 12) that has allowed them to control the gainline, IMO.
SA have de Allende and Esterhuizen at 12. France have a queue of large juggernauts at 12.
I like Jordie Barrett, but he is no Nonu, or SBW. Yet at least.
The ABs under McCaw had a strong scrum, were ultra efficient at line out time and collectively strong when competing at the breakdown to provide lightning fast ball in the early phases of possession to stress defences (yes, even rush defences a la Boks under White). The forwards sometimes gained ascendancy, but more often tied up opposing forward packs to allow the potency of their back line to wreak havoc. I think the current crop of AB forwards are capable of the same. Question is, can the back line use the ball and space they are provided with well enough? If not, the drums will beat louder for more power runners up front which will require a change of personnel and/or a change of conditioning for the players to be less athletic and more powerful.
Another systemic issue is player development. We haven't been great at U20 for a fair few years either. The AB XV is a move forward though, and I like the way Robertson is working with the SR teams (even if it involves Havili..)
It's good to see the likes of Ratima, Darry, Sititi and Proctor coming thru. Can understand Robertson not using them in game's like today's but hope he has the space and confidence to use them more in this RC
I dunno, I kinda feel like we used to be so dominant at age grade just due to the growing up with a rugby ball in your hands thing plus extra fitness, but were never really physically dominant, the physical growth tended to come later.
What with age grade academies in the rest of the world now, that aspect is dulled and the earlier physical development comes to the fore, something it seems NZ rugby doesn't push until a later age anyway, which is fine by me.
Other countries have caught up for sure on age grade stuff, but I think we've missed a trick on the player development side of things. Whether is co-ordination, a national plan not being good enough or lack of opportunities to test players, I don't know.
I also worry about the mental side of things and player discipline.
A lady at work's son was playing high school rugby in Auckland and got picked up by an English Club.
He's paid to be in their academy team and I'm sure he's one of many. Our rugby nurseries are being attacked -
@Machpants said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Machpants which seems fair enough considering the hype around Razor in Foster's last couple of years.
The hype around Razor was beause Foster was so shit, obvs he wants the ABs to lose so he can crow - that is Grade A fluffybunny material.
You seem to be taking it a lot more seriously and reading a lot more info it than I did.
First ten times I was ho ho ho good point, however for a guy with fuck all posts, and most of them are about this, it is getting on my tits
Another cheap shot at Foster
Fuxking Chuck Norris
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@darylmitchell said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
We are really only behind France and England at U20 level which is expected - they have the resources and playing numbers to be there consistently. SA should but they have been poor at U20 level for more than several years... and yet people crow on here that we're so shit with our 2015, 2017 U20 WC winners and multiple Bronze finalists.
The question is, with all that U20 talent, are we getting the best out of it?
Fozzie sure didn't. Had the last of Rennie's 2008-2011 golden generation of U20s spine at his disposal between 2020-2023.
The man tempered our expectations so much it had people on here convincing themselves that Foster's All Black spine of 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2015, 2017 winning U20's players had no right to beat an Ireland side in 2023 who's best ever U20's result was a runner's up in 2016.
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It’s been a looooong fortnight and this thread is evidence that a weeks break between tests has allowed some imaginations to run far more wild than normal….
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@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
It’s been a looooong fortnight and this thread is evidence that a weeks break between tests has allowed some imaginations to run far more wild than normal….
I've even found myself talking to JC
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@stodders See I think we still lack an enforcer in the pack. We were spoilt with the likes of JC, BBBR and Kaino, but since then the cupboard has been a bit bare. Foster dabbled with Akira, then cast him adrift, and no one else has been able to fill the void. I’m hoping Finau might shape up for the role supported by Sititi, but who knows in these PC times. Similarly our midfield lacks the presence of a Nonu, deceptive ball-runner, proverbial out house with a hard shoulder, who mastered the art of the perfect cut-out pass, and he had wheels. Now Procter is a good foil for Jordie and fulfills this criteria. Use them ffs!
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@Jailbreak7 if Grace had lived up to his early promise as a cross between Waldrom and Read he would've been pretty handy. Still only 24 so has time but seems to have regressed.
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Our team has enough talent if we have clear heads and minimize mistakes we have a good chance.
Boring sentence but true.
First half England 2022 and first half Argentina 2 2024 is what we want.
AB cap on.
Huge game for Tamaiti Williams -
