All Blacks v Argentina II
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
And that could be Sam Cane this week.
Hope so (if only to piss off @cantab79/Ali's Choice on PR) Well he has managed to get through 95 tests in his 10 year career so he might be slightly less perma injured ...
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I agree it was a workrate effort so it wasn't high impact.
He contributed to limit England's scoring and helped the ABs deliver more and faster ruck ball.
He didn't set the world on fire but it was enough to build on. He's a genuine athlete with a big ceiling with the right coaching.
Confidence will come with game time.
The lack of go forward at the moment from all the forwards is due to the lateral nature of the attack and the width.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
True, but also the backline is so lateral and is not asking any questions of the defense - maybe Razor should've got Tony Brown before the South African’s did.
It also seems that Jason Holland's strike moves are about as complex as 'Jordie cart it up the middle' off lineouts and scrums.
It's not just the backline. A number of other nations look better coached and better structured than we do (and have done for about ~seven years).
I don't think we have the clear distinction of better skills under pressure to rely on anymore.
When was the last time we saw something other than the split pod at lineout time to a runner barrelling through unscathed?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Still a but dynamic for my liking.
Thank you for your generous spirit.
I meant, WTH does "Still a but dynamic for my liking" mean?I must have been saying “bit” with a kiwi accent. Good spotting
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
And that could be Sam Cane this week.
Hope so (if only to piss off @cantab79/Ali's Choice on PR) Well he has managed to get through 95 tests in his 10 year career so he might be slightly less perma injured ...
Don’t forget @Tim
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@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The lack of go forward at the moment from all the forwards is due to the lateral nature of the attack and the width.
The few times we went hard and fast up the middle we scored. So there is the basis of a winning strategy there, as long as we don't keep going away from it (like our runners going away from their support...)
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
You could be right the signs point to something similar to that is happening.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz width is fine and dandy. As long as you win the collisions and establish a platform up front. We should have learned this by now, we've been making the same mistakes since 2019
hey, remember all those championships the Blues won with X factor and razzle dazzle? Same as the Warriors eh
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz width is fine and dandy. As long as you win the collisions and establish a platform up front. We should have learned this by now, we've been making the same mistakes since 2019
Two tests against England in ten minute periods we blew them off the park. Wondered WTF hit them. They were out on their feet and had zero answers. It was a result of good hard running up the guts with some flashy shit to finish off. Then for some reason we allowed them back in. Rinse and repeat.
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@LatsToTheMax Go back to Fozzie and you will find games we did that very thing. Frustrating. With a capital F
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
Or the playing style is flawed, and doesn't give the players the best chance to play their best
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
You mean as in preseason? Not sure I buy that either. These are supposed to be elite players we're talking about, not the mix you get at a much lower level.
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@Bones I don't buy that either - remember how quickly Joe Schmidt's attacking systems came into effect when he took over the attack at short notice mid-2022?
Holland and McDonald have been in AB camp since January this year and the coaching group were meeting and planning as early as once 2023 SR finished...
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
Well, it took ABs about four kick offs for ABs to realise Argies were kicking right and deep to negate TJS returning off his left boot. Noticed later they passed to DMac.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
It helps if you try and run into space.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
Well, it took ABs about four kick offs for ABs to realise Argies were kicking right and deep to negate TJS returning off his left boot. Noticed later they passed to DMac.
ok so using their brains would be an improvement as well...
