All Blacks vs England 2
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan although if he selected Funaki (IMO regardless if it is Hotham, Roe, Viljoen etc) that 3rd spot is, for all intents and purposes right now a 'project' player with one eye firmly on the future (possibly why they also went past Fakatava) given they are technically 5th right now, just injuries see them sitting as the 3rd option, and if we find ourselves in the position of having to play that '5th' halfback, I honestly dont see it mattering which one it happens to be.
But for injury to Roigard, TJ likely wouldnt have even made the squad as he'd have had less time in the saddle for the 'canes.
Injuries have forced thier hand to look at players earlier than they probably hoped.
For a call in player, Fakatava is probably the best choice purely as he has previous Test experience. If Christie goes down in the warmup do we really want Ratima and Hotham as the only two options?
The flipside to the test experience (Fakatava has 2 tests) is that Scott Hansen (who coaches the 9s and 10s) has worked with Hotham before a lot.
On Super Rugby form Fakatava certainly didn't excude a level of trust in his play that you would expect with his experience.
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@JayCee said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Tim said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Christie said on a podcast that Roigard can kick contestable kicks 10 to 15m further than anyone in NZ (last year) because he gets so much more height on them.
as if i didn't have enough of a crush on Roigard already ....
Has @Canes4life hacked this account ?
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
But back to rugby. Robertson is the All Black coach now, and when 50/50 calls all seem to be going to journeymen Crusaders it's worthy of comment (Bell, Blackadder, Hotham, Havilli). ABs are for players ready now, not project players or improving the depth/development of the struggling Crusaders.
The only one you know for sure is a journeyman (at least at AB level) is Havilli. Bell and Hotham are likely the future of the Crusaders and have hit all their previous marks at grade level. (Who knows with Blackadder if he is any good, since he never plays, but he goes OK some of the time.)
And you are talking rot about all the 50/50 calls going to Cantabs anyway. I'm a Chiefs supporter and I reckon they got more rub than the Crusaders -- Jacobson and Va'ai don't inspire me much, Sititi makes Hotham look like a veteran and Narawa gets exposed defensively too much for my liking.
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Doesn’t fit their narrative though.
I really hope his son makes super rugby and kills it. Imagine the hate if he selected him for the ABs.
He’s currently playing 1st 5 in 1st XV and is a decent player so who knows. The younger one who’s a flanker is the one to watch. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan the 2 test veteran? Probably just shows how much he has fallen away more than anything.
As above, if we get to that point, I dont think it matters who comes off the bench or has to start, it'll be sink or swim time for whoever it is.
At least he has significant experience at Super Level, throwing a rookie in the deep end doesn't seem like great management to me.
All relies on Christie's fitness, unnecessary risk.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
But back to rugby. Robertson is the All Black coach now, and when 50/50 calls all seem to be going to journeymen Crusaders it's worthy of comment (Bell, Blackadder, Hotham, Havilli). ABs are for players ready now, not project players or improving the depth/development of the struggling Crusaders.
The only one you know for sure is a journeyman (at least at AB level) is Havilli. Bell and Hotham are likely the future of the Crusaders and have hit all their previous marks at grade level. (Who knows with Blackadder if he is any good, since he never plays, but he goes OK some of the time.)
And you are talking rot about all the 50/50 calls going to Cantabs anyway. I'm a Chiefs supporter and I reckon they got more rub than the Crusaders -- Jacobson and Va'ai don't inspire me much, Sititi makes Hotham look like a veteran and Narawa gets exposed defensively too much for my liking.
Call me old fashioned, but I want players selected that have earned their callup. You are correct in highlighting Sititi, but I've beaten that horse to death already. If you select Jacobson, no need for Blackadder IMO. Those two are the same level of meh.
Selecting a hooker that can't perform his core role is just stupid.
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@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The only one you know for sure is a journeyman (at least at AB level) is Havilli.
And Havili didn't get picked. He's the only guy who went to RWC who didn't get picked. Six months ago the ex-Chiefs and Blues coaches thought he was the fourth best midfielder in the country - Razor and Holland dropped him.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
The flip side of this is that time in the environment now will hopefully benefit them in the long run if they are both seen as the future.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
The flip side of this is that time in the environment now will hopefully benefit them in the long run if they are both seen as the future.
Well that's great for the Crusaders isn't it. Pick the best players now, not ones that might be good in the future. That's repeating past mistakes.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
The flip side of this is that time in the environment now will hopefully benefit them in the long run if they are both seen as the future.
I agree - and if they were brought in as apprentices, people would understand.
But as full ABs, the question is 'why' - this isn't a NMS scenario where he played the house down, Bell had serious issues with his game and wound up benched behind McWhannell at some stage I believe. Like Sititi, both are early in their pro career and still getting bodies pro ready I suspect. You'd want to see serious potential there, and with issues in the core role (Bell) it's legit to question it.
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All Blacks accused of ‘illegal’ scrummaging as England legend urges Steve Borthwick to report it to World Rugby
Ex-England hooker Brian Moore felt that England were hard done by with some of the decisions at the scrum during Saturday’s defeat to the All Blacks.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
The flip side of this is that time in the environment now will hopefully benefit them in the long run if they are both seen as the future.
Well that's great for the Crusaders isn't it. Pick the best players now, not ones that might be good in the future. That's repeating past mistakes.
I think in both instances it's for short stints (Perenara sounds like back for TRC at worst and I assume similar for Samisoni though as haven't heard anything about long term).
They are using the opportunity to develop these players they see as the future.
In their mind they are looking at best players in regards to which players look suited for test footy moving forward - rather than a form Super Rugby XV.
It sucks for the likes of Riccitelli in particular (on form Hotham deserves to be there as much as Fakatava) but I think in their mind they see Bell as a long term AB prospect that suffered from poor coaching.
Proof will be in the pudding of course.
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Blame the last coaches for not creating depth then.
How do we reckon Hoskins would’ve gone in the tight stuff on Saturday night. He wouldn’t have handled it. That’s why he wasn’t picked. -
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Blame the last coaches for not creating depth then.
How do we reckon Hoskins would’ve gone in the tight stuff on Saturday night. He wouldn’t have handled it. That’s why he wasn’t picked.Jesus christ, how do you type this rubbish with two hands around Razors dick?
For one, one of the main coaches from the last lot is still there anyway. But it's not their job to create depth for the next coach. Razor isn't selecting Jacobson and Blackadder for the depth of the next coach.
Secondly, Sotutu would have been as good/bad as any of the loosies that played on the day in the tight stuff. You haven't watched the Blues this year if you think otherwise.
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@chchfanatic yea in the last few years there was often comments re halfback in particular, we were just fortunate Smith was so durable and consistent, similarly Savea...can't blame the coaches for wanting to keep them on the park and win Games, but at some point you also need to be looking forward.
When these guys play 60+ minutes in the big games it makes it harder to develop those behind them, a blessing and a curse...
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Kirwan well everything is banking on Christies fitness, a 22 test veteran...after that we are in raw rookie territory, regardless.
Injuries are part of the game, we have plenty of talented 9s running about, but such as been the quality of Aaron Smith, that we went back to TJ and now rely on Christie with Roigards absence.
Think you are making an awful lot of something that in the greater scheme, will be irrelevant if Christie doesn't get injured, or if he does, I dont think that 3rd/5th spot will matter either way.
Two injuries away from Bell and Hotham being in the 23, I'd like better options. Sue me
The flip side of this is that time in the environment now will hopefully benefit them in the long run if they are both seen as the future.
Well that's great for the Crusaders isn't it. Pick the best players now, not ones that might be good in the future. That's repeating past mistakes.
Seems weird to me to ignore potential - why wouldn't an international coach who has been tasked with a multi-year role have the ability and desire to look at a bunch of available players and make a call on who may have reached their ceiling and who might develop into something better?
I really can't see how this is a big deal at all, certainly not worth screaming provincial bias about.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
I think in both instances it's for short stints (Perenara sounds like back for TRC at worst
Hotham is only in camp for this week at the moment. I assume a final decision on who travels to SD won't be made until after the test.
