Lincoln McClutchie - 16th best 1st 5
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A cat fight over a who’s who of fringe rugby players I’ve mostly never heard off. The exodus thread in recent times.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
MP didn't chose to renew his contract
There are lots and lots of players who chose to not re-sign with MP. If that group is so big, there must have been good reasons for that and it's why MP has so many new players (many of them nobodies). Doesn't mean MP didn't want them. He might just be one of them.
it seemed that Leilafano was preferred 10 (and not just because Lilo was captain as he also could play 12 and if Link had a strong case they could of moved Lilo out one)
Leaili'ifano is a good and experienced test 10. They didn't move him out to 12 (apart from approx 2 occasions when the reserve 10 came on) because they had players like Toala, Aumua, Taefu etc who are better at 12.
and I not sure even he would be offered a contract with any other NZ team?
seem noone else in NZ (or probably Japan) wanted him?
Geez, genius comment, nobody in NZ wanted him. That's exactly what our criticism is about! A 10, the top points scorer of the 2023 NPC, who is hugely influential in his NPC team, creates a lot of the scoring opportunities for his team, is well-liked, and steered his team to their best NPC performance of the modern NPC didn't get a NZ SR contract. It's just madness if you look at who (several far lesser players) actually do have a contract.
About Japan, that's just speculation.
he has known he was out of contract since early in year
So all players should abandon any hope of playing SR during the NPC? Especially players who have already played SR? Then how come some rookies who didn't set the NPC on fire get contracts? By playing local club rugby?
I find it hard ro swallow that we would know more than the 5 franchises what they want or need as players.
That's such a discussion killing comment. We criticise signings and selections all the time. Should we just lock the Fern and no longer question the decisions of coaches, other decision-makers and franchises?
I actually oriignally replied when Nepia said he held it against NZR for hin not getting contract, and I pointed out it was the 5 super rugby teams that didn't want him. And if as you say he left MP because they weren't good enough (which I doubt anyway) he or his manager were very very stupid to do it without him having somewhere else to go I still say if all super teams in NZ didn't have a spot for him, and I would assume noone from Aus offered him one, noone from Japan or NH, and that is not what I meant about why he hasn't got a contract, noone said it couldn't be discussed.
"> So all players should abandon any hope of playing SR during the NPC? Especially players who have already played SR? Then how come some rookies who didn't set the NPC on fire get contracts? By playing local club rugby?"
That would make sense but vhe signed for San Diego in August.....you know BEFORE NPC was even been played for him to show wares?I not against McLutchie in anyway, always been a fan of him at NPC, simply saying there too much evidence to suggest he is not really quite up to level of super for him to be seen as a huge loss, or anyone failed in not signing him.
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@Canes4life said in Exodus:
@Nepia I'm shocked and stunned you didn't notice it about McClutchie, yet did about Morgan.
That's because he's always been fairly chunky/solid - you're the one spotting the extra extra chins.
Lol calling Morgan fat is like calling Ben Tameifuna skinny. Classic.
Well I didn't actually call him fat, he does have a chunky body shape though which @Stargazer pointed out, so that was somewhat relevant to the debate at hand.
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And if as you say he left MP because they weren't good enough (which I doubt anyway)
The many players who didn't re-sign with MP didn't just do that because the franchise wasn't good enough. There were other issues with that club that kept them from returning to the club. Why do you think it was only about the franchise's performance? No one has said that.
That would make sense but vhe signed for San Diego in August.....you know BEFORE NPC was even been played for him to show wares?
Where does it say he signed with San Diego in August?
there too much evidence to suggest he is not really quite up to level of super for him to be seen as a huge loss, or anyone failed in not signing him.
I haven't seen any convincing evidence at all. The fact that arguably one of the best 10s of the NPC is overlooked for a contract, while lesser players are signed, is evidence that the selection and contracting process needs improving.
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I actually oriignally replied when Nepia said he held it against NZR for hin not getting contract, and I pointed out it was the 5 super rugby teams that didn't want him.
Was going to reply to your response to me but easier to reply here. You're highlighting why I blame NZR. The system they've set up means a guy who was one of the best players in the NPC this year didn't get selected in one of 5 Super teams when players who performed worse did.
On Robinson, I was drinking with him after he missed out, he was gutted, it wasn't his choice. (I'm not mates with him, Northland mates of mine are, TBH I don't really have much time for him as a person).
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
And if as you say he left MP because they weren't good enough (which I doubt anyway)
The many players who didn't re-sign with MP didn't just do that because the franchise wasn't good enough. There were other issues with that club that kept them from returning to the club. Why do you think it was only about the franchise's performance? No one has said that.
That would make sense but vhe signed for San Diego in August.....you know BEFORE NPC was even been played for him to show wares?
Where does it say he signed with San Diego in August?
Well that's when I first saw it announced, that he was going to San Diego, when I first realised he wasn't still with MP. Pretty sure it was late August, as I rember talking about it at rugby club, that it was out. And I haven't been at club since August.
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Still waiting to hear which 10s should be missing out for Lincoln, who I do like but as I said I don't think his ceiling is high enough to invest in. I really never thought he was any better than a Jason Potroz, who has been a good 10 for the Naki , but never really gave me impression he was a player who's ceiling was much above that, so rightfully never got a gig. But then someone like Jacomb comes through and gets snapped up, he still will have to prove himself sometime in next couple of years I imagine. For the life of me I haven't seen McLutchie do anything at super (and he started most of his first year)to make me think he a good investment. Though personally I would of had him in the Clan last year ahead of Marty Banks if he had been free then.
I understand that you and Stargazer think that he should be in some team, just I would accept if he was but can understand why he isn't. -
Lesser (in terms of experience or talent) players who are signed:
Blues: Cashmore. (I'd also argue Plummer is more a 12 than a 10, so you could have a look at their rookie midfielders, I guess)
Hurricanes: clearly Morgan; Cameron is questionable; he's injured a lot. The Canes also signed Punivai (wing), who they didn't really need.
Crusaders: signed Reihana late and an experienced foreign fullback (Halfpenny), with Burke out for a large chunk of the season. Kemara wasn't good at all for the NZ U20s, this year. Signed too early, I think.
Highlanders: Faleafaga has hardly shown anything at NPC level yet, and is probably also signed for SR too early. To offset his and often injured Miller's inexperience, they also signed a foreigner. -
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
Lesser (in terms of experience or talent) players who are signed:
Blues: Cashmore. (I'd also argue Plummer is more a 12 than a 10, so you could have a look at their rookie midfielders, I guess)
Hurricanes: clearly Morgan; Cameron is questionable; he's injured a lot. The Canes also signed Punivai (wing), who they didn't really need.
Crusaders: signed Reihana late and an experienced foreign fullback (Halfpenny), with Burke out for a large chunk of the season. Kemara wasn't good at all for the NZ U20s, this year. Signed too early, I think.
Highlanders: Faleafaga has hardly shown anything at NPC level yet, and is probably also signed for SR too early. To offset his and often injured Miller's inexperience, they also signed a foreigner.Not sure that's compelling evidence that "they" have picked inferior players.
As a counter point the little I've seen of Jacomb suggests he was deserving of a full squad spot.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
Lesser (in terms of experience or talent) players who are signed:
Blues: Cashmore. (I'd also argue Plummer is more a 12 than a 10, so you could have a look at their rookie midfielders, I guess)
Hurricanes: clearly Morgan; Cameron is questionable; he's injured a lot. The Canes also signed Punivai (wing), who they didn't really need.
Crusaders: signed Reihana late and an experienced foreign fullback (Halfpenny), with Burke out for a large chunk of the season. Kemara wasn't good at all for the NZ U20s, this year. Signed too early, I think.
Highlanders: Faleafaga has hardly shown anything at NPC level yet, and is probably also signed for SR too early. To offset his and often injured Miller's inexperience, they also signed a foreigner.Some of that is a function of consistent baked-in biases of the 5 super franchises and other complications:
Blues: They prefer 10/15 hybrids and are the one team that has actually spoken about adapting to a dual playmaker system over the past three years. And the elephant in the room named beauden is due back in 2025.
Hurricanes: They give most of their extra spots to midfielders and backs that can fill in for midfielders. Their focus is never on 10s tbh.
Crusaders: Their picks for 10 are a calculated gamble, bc they have a lot of experience (Heinz, Crotty, Halfpenny) directly around their tens and test players in their squad. Could work.
Highlanders: Not so much a bias in their squad selection, but more that few players want to play for them. Just looking inward.
Chiefs: It's all bet on Dmac not breaking down at the wrong time.
But some of the blame is also at the feet of promising players (backs in general). If you want to make a run for higher honours or establish yourself at Super level, 2024 is THE year to do so. By my count Kneepkens and Reihana are some of the few making sane "I want to play" decisions. The rest seem happy to continue their eternal apprenticeships.
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I'll get shot down for this, but think Bay fans have rose-tinted glasses with McClutchie. Is he the second coming of christ? No.
No one from the Bay has claimed he's the second coming of christ. If that's where you're coming from you're wilfully missing the point ...
I'm not wilfully missing the point. My point is that Hawke's Bay fans have their blinkers on with McClutchie. Every now and then there are players who shoot through the NPC and are extremely unlucky not to get Super Rugby contracts, but that sort of things has happened in all sports forever. There are always lucky player and unlucky players - there is not an issue with the Super Rugby contracting system just because McClutchie didn't get a contract.
It isn't like he is a new player, has previously spent time in camp with the Highlanders and possibly some of the other NZ sides, also ignoring that he was with MP. Several new 10s have been signed up, and they have not signed McClutchie. Considering the amount of new players signed, if teams were really interested they would have found a spot for him (Unless he turned a contract down).
Despite what some might think, the fact no team wants him tells you there is a reason why. Without evidence, I wouldn't suggest it is anything sinister, so there is obviously things in his game they don't like.
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I thought Cashmore was impressive in the NPC before getting injured. I was really pleased the Blues got him, as I thought that he would get a better offer elsewhere.
I think the boy has got a good future too Tim, got the makings of a good 10 at super level. I like when young ones like this get signed up, they are our future.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
Lesser (in terms of experience or talent) players who are signed:
Blues: Cashmore. (I'd also argue Plummer is more a 12 than a 10, so you could have a look at their rookie midfielders, I guess)
Hurricanes: clearly Morgan; Cameron is questionable; he's injured a lot. The Canes also signed Punivai (wing), who they didn't really need.
Crusaders: signed Reihana late and an experienced foreign fullback (Halfpenny), with Burke out for a large chunk of the season. Kemara wasn't good at all for the NZ U20s, this year. Signed too early, I think.
Highlanders: Faleafaga has hardly shown anything at NPC level yet, and is probably also signed for SR too early. To offset his and often injured Miller's inexperience, they also signed a foreigner.Not sure that's compelling evidence that "they" have picked inferior players.
As a counter point the little I've seen of Jacomb suggests he was deserving of a full squad spot.
As I understand it, Jacomb has a WTG spot, so not actually in competition with McClutchie.
Our 10s are Dmac, Ioane, and Trask. Not much room for him there.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
Lesser (in terms of experience or talent) players who are signed:
Blues: Cashmore. (I'd also argue Plummer is more a 12 than a 10, so you could have a look at their rookie midfielders, I guess)
Hurricanes: clearly Morgan; Cameron is questionable; he's injured a lot. The Canes also signed Punivai (wing), who they didn't really need.
Crusaders: signed Reihana late and an experienced foreign fullback (Halfpenny), with Burke out for a large chunk of the season. Kemara wasn't good at all for the NZ U20s, this year. Signed too early, I think.
Highlanders: Faleafaga has hardly shown anything at NPC level yet, and is probably also signed for SR too early. To offset his and often injured Miller's inexperience, they also signed a foreigner.Fuck it, I'll join in. That post above got me thinking where there was space when he was coming through.
He's a good footy player, but he's 24 years old, and is not the future of any of the Super teams now. How about in the past?
If he has missed out to 21-22 year olds (most of whom were in NZ U20 teams), he probably didn't quite do enough when he was called into the highlanders in 2019 (when they had Ioane, Gatland, and Banks). That may have been his opportunity, but for whatever reason, they didn't want him in 2020 (when they signed Ioane, Hunt, and Gatland).
At least, it's still not clear to any of us whether he turned down a WTG spot early in his career either. I wouldn't be surprised if he was offered one but decided to take the money in Japan instead. That's only speculation, and may have been a fair decision, but it would have definitely hurt his chances later on. There are always more 10s coming through and they may be bigger than 174cms tall and weighing 80 odd kgs.
Looking at the time when he was entering Super rugby (2019 - 2020), here were the squads in 2019:
Canes: Beauden Barrett, Jackson Garden-Bachop, Fletcher Smith
Landers: Bryn Gatland, Josh Ioane, Marty Banks
Saders: Richie Mo’unga, Brett Cameron, Mitchell Hunt
Chiefs: Damian McKenzie, Tiaan Falcon, Jack Debreczeni
Blues: Otere Black, Stephen Perofeta, Harry Plummer
So, of his age group, he was missing out to Burke who was WTG at the Saders. I think Reihana was WTG at the Chiefs. Plummer is a year older and is local to the Blues.
At that stage, he could have been a WTG member for the Canes and was called into the Landers as injury cover at some stage. He was in the Canes U20 squad though so could have been called up by them as required.
In November 2019, he signed for Japan for 2020 (it is unknown whether he turned down a WTG spot somewhere, but he had been in the Landers during 2019 at some stage), after missing out to the following in the 2020 squads:
Canes: Jackson Garden-Bachop, Fletcher Smith, James Marshall
Landers: Bryn Gatland, Josh Ioane, Mitchell Hunt (& Gilbert)
Saders: Richie Mo’unga, Brett Cameron, Fergus Burke
Chiefs: Damian McKenzie, Tiaan Falcon, Aaron Cruden, Kaleb Trask,
Blues: Beauden Barrett, Otere Black, Stephen Perofeta, Harry Plummer
When you look at those lists, there were plenty of good 1st fives around, and he seems to have just missed his opportunity at the Canes (it seems he may have had one at the Highlanders).
Burke and Reihana (and Gilbert I think) were U20s in 2019 (Trask was injured).
Reihana, Zarn Sullivan, Ruben Love, and Aiden Morgan were all named in 2020 U20 squads too, so there was more talent coming.
He was also part of the Canes U20 squad in 2019 and had his chances (starting most games from memory), and although they picked up Flanders and Toala from that group in 2020, he didn't go up.
It's all speculation, but he seems to have opportunities - he just couldn't take advantage of them.
