RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Still catching up with the thread, but my take is that arbitrary TMO calls didn't decide the match, they made it impossible to tell what would have happened if it was 15v15 the whole match. The RWC final deserved that but instead all I have is an inkling the ABs would have won, but who knows? Terrible outcome and brings the game into disrepute.
I don't think anyone is saying Barnes or the TMO decided the outcome but the TMO certainly had an influence. SF gets 20 for falling over yet you can scream in to a ruck and blow some oke off the ball. SC getting red yet SK smokes Ardie and gets a yellow, EDG and SC get clobbered in the face with arms, FDK knocking on, Ardie clearly winning à turnover, was acknowledged and apologised to yet penalty wasn't reversed and a potential try goes back 5 phases and ruled out. We had plenty of chances to win the game. One kick to go over or a favourable bounce off the ball and it's game.
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Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
really? its not even a week yet, this board will still be talking about it for years
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
Are you sure Mike? He clearly says "I'm sorry mate, I didn't see the replay, I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"
IIRC this was just after seeing it on the big screen - which I take to mean him saying "I didn't see the replay in time and now I've made a decision already"
Because Ardie then says "so that was alright" and Barnes goes "yep"
Sounds a lot like admitting an error (a fucking costly one given it should have gone the other way) if not an apology to me
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I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
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@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
But what of the next sentence Booboo?
"Ardie then says "so that was alright" and Barnes goes "yep"
He's clearly seen a replay at this point.
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@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Fuck it I'm drinking
We were robbed
Better team lost
We didn't take our chances, but SA burgled another one. They can't beat us at full strength. Like Australia and the lions, need a red card to get over the lineFuck you haters. Black is the new black.
Drinking NZZP is my favourite NZZP
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Fuck it I'm drinking
We were robbed
Better team lost
We didn't take our chances, but SA burgled another one. They can't beat us at full strength. Like Australia and the lions, need a red card to get over the lineFuck you haters. Black is the new black.
i find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
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Yeah fuck it, I'm being too diplomatic as well. The TMO didn't stop us from telling who would have won had it stayed 15v15, the TMO stopped us from knowing how much the men in black would have won by without arbitrary cards. I'd say 20+ if I'm being honest.
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Fuck it I'm drinking
We were robbed
Better team lost
We didn't take our chances, but SA burgled another one. They can't beat us at full strength. Like Australia and the lions, need a red card to get over the lineFuck you haters. Black is the new black.
i find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
it's onlyfans. Free sample below for you and @Bones
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
Should the TMO be involved as much? Not sure to be honest. I prefer accurate decisions to obvious mistakes being waived on because the ref missed them, I accept that a balance is tough to strike though.
It’s not pretty clear to me that refereeing decisions DECIDED the final, affected it sure, but decided it? Not for me, we can disagree on that if you like but it strikes me a strange position to take given you missed a penalty in the last few minutes.
I think the decison were worth, say, eight points. That ABs got to within one tells you everything about the true merits of the teams.
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@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
TMO intervening on penalties for holding on not relesding etc is not in their remit. Nor should it be.
Time to close the thread methinks. No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change the result.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
Should the TMO be involved as much? Not sure to be honest. I prefer accurate decisions to obvious mistakes being waived on because the ref missed them, I accept that a balance is tough to strike though.
It’s not pretty clear to me that refereeing decisions DECIDED the final, affected it sure, but decided it? Not for me, we can disagree on that if you like but it strikes me a strange position to take given you missed a penalty in the last few minutes.
I think the decison were worth, say, eight points. That ABs got to within one tells you everything about the true merits of the teams.
I mean that's just silly, one thing changes, everything changes. You play the game as it stands throughout the game, you don't play it based on things that could have happened. South Africa played rugby the way they did because they were infront. We have literally no idea how they would have played otherwise.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
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@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
A guideline? FFS, talk about giving the little man in the booth ultimate power. As Shag said, time to restore the balance of power. The ref should be the top dog, the TMO subservient to him and only there to do his/her bidding
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@Dodge yes! Which is exactly why the TMO intervention ruined it! We don't know what would have happened had they not completely fucked up, intervening constantly, and then gotten some of their crucial decisions 100% wrong. In a WC final no less! That's just not good enough and it ruined the game completely.
Yes we can't say the ABs would have won if they didn't get those bad calls, as you say everything changes. But surely we can all agree that the TMO had a bigger impact on that game than any of the players, despite the herculean efforts of PSDT and Ardie. That's so wrong.
