RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
We are an incredibly naive team.
Naive or too 'nice' and just a want to get on with the game?
I think we do miss that hard edge when playing the ref, Richie did it, but even then, it was more about the rules than alerting the ref to things to look at.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
We are an incredibly naive team.
Naive or too 'nice' and just a want to get on with the game?
I think we do miss that hard edge when playing the ref, Richie did it, but even then, it was more about the rules than alerting the ref to things to look at.
Richie certainly had that hard edge which we currently lack. The TMO wasn't as much of a factor during his time though so he didn't have to alert the refs in the same way players today have to.
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
My view on the whole thing is a bit more simplistic,
I think the margins between the top 4 sides are tiny, you could replay the quarter final the next week and get a different result and replay the final and get a different result next time around .
But as always, winning papers over the cracks and losing over emphasis them.
Yes, but the bloody Saffers did it when it mattered. 3 times on the bounce. A tad fortunate maybe v France but they played poorly v England and v NZ in much of the second half and still got over the line.
There are no undeserving RWC winners.
We tend to attach certain phrases to sporting contests in an emotive way to try and make sense of it all. But I’ve never really got the whole deserved or undeserved winners stuff. Your team either wins or doesn’t. It’s that clear cut. And that is why it’s so devastating when you think your team plays well and they don’t get the choccies.
A score line sometimes isn’t a true reflection of what happens on the field. But sometimes it very much is. The weekend in my opinion was clearly in the latter category. It was a genuinely close match.
Reminded me of 2011, only this time we missed the potential go ahead kicks late in the game
remember in 2011 we missed a couple of early shots at goal. Weepu was the culprit.
IIRC he hurt his leg in the warmup
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
We are an incredibly naive team.
Naive or too 'nice' and just a want to get on with the game?
I think we do miss that hard edge when playing the ref, Richie did it, but even then, it was more about the rules than alerting the ref to things to look at.
Richie certainly had that hard edge which we currently lack. The TMO wasn't as much of an influence during his time though so he didn't have to alert the refs in the same way players today have to.
Richie didn't always have that, it was a skill he developed
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@akan004 fair call.
Although, for whatever reason, it seems for the most part we dont really wanna engage in calling the ref's attention to shit and just want to play, yet seems we have several Super captains always happy to point it out.
Playing/managing the ref is a big part of the game now, like it or not, so we need to join the revolution and start pressing the issue on some of the 50/50 shit, cos if it was the other way, other captains sure as shit will and do at every opportunity.
That said, I am still dead set against cards except for actual foul/dirty play, not these accidental contacts labelled foul play, IMO there is a better way.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Playing/managing the ref is a big part of the game now, like it or not,
dislike.
It's the reality, but we're conditioned to cards all the time, so TMO replays get crowds calling for sending off. It's nuts when you step back and think about it
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SA perspective : Went through 3 tight games, did just enough, almost blew a final against 14 men. Relief. Know that any of the 3 teams could have them so they are humble and gracious. Smartest team in the tournament.
NZ Perspective : Overcame their nemesis. Made it to the final, albeit surprised to. Didn’t get the the rub, but fought valiantly with a man down but couldn’t execute through mind and body in critical passages. Felt like they left it on the table.
That’s where we’re at, isn’t it?
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The biggest concern for me apart from not winning, is we were known as the innovators . Not any more .
More of a concern for me is that we aren't savvy enough to influence the officials the way other teams do. We are an incredibly naive team.
Kriel gets hit by Cane, and he is smart enough to stay down while Kolisi brings it to the referee's attention. Same thing in Twickenham when Barrett takes out Marx, and the Springboks immediately notify the referee about it.
On the other hand when Eben leads with his elbow, Cane just bounces back up and continues playing instead of alerting the ref. Ardie also chooses to be silent after being hit high by Kolisi, luckily it was picked up by the TMO.
Another example was Aaron Smith's non try, Ardie should have reminded Barnes that the TMO can't go back more than two phases. Barnes probably would have ignored him but you at least have to plant that idea in his head that your team have been hard done by, and that might just be enough to influence him to award the next marginal call in your favour .
I know this is the reality of the situation, but it's pretty fűcking sickening that it's come to this. Very sad for the game.
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Just a casual observation but from what I can observe across many sports that use technology in their officiating is when there are clear rules for that technology to be called upon (by either the players or refs) then the technology works quite well.
The issue with rugby is that we have someone watching a screen looking for the minutest detail who then continually interjects into the game regardless of whether the technology has been called for or not.
In short in rugby the TMO isn't there to assist the ref in making a decision - it is God telling the ref what to do.
And if this is the case why even bother having a ref on the field - or AR's, just have the TMO up there telling everyone what to do, that's how the game is going...
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Still catching up with the thread, but my take is that arbitrary TMO calls didn't decide the match, they made it impossible to tell what would have happened if it was 15v15 the whole match. The RWC final deserved that but instead all I have is an inkling the ABs would have won, but who knows? Terrible outcome and brings the game into disrepute.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The biggest concern for me apart from not winning, is we were known as the innovators . Not any more .
More of a concern for me is that we aren't savvy enough to influence the officials the way other teams do. We are an incredibly naive team.
Kriel gets hit by Cane, and he is smart enough to stay down while Kolisi brings it to the referee's attention. Same thing in Twickenham when Barrett takes out Marx, and the Springboks immediately notify the referee about it.
On the other hand when Eben leads with his elbow, Cane just bounces back up and continues playing instead of alerting the ref. Ardie also chooses to be silent after being hit high by Kolisi, luckily it was picked up by the TMO.
Another example was Aaron Smith's non try, Ardie should have reminded Barnes that the TMO can't go back more than two phases. Barnes probably would have ignored him but you at least have to plant that idea in his head that your team have been hard done by, and that might just be enough to influence him to award the next marginal call in your favour .
1,000,000%. You could hear through Barnes' coms the voice of Kolisi and a few others yelping at every ruck about some BS. Barnes may have even told one of them to shut up. I've been saying this for awhile. Leadership need to get in the ref's ear respectfully and point out some shit and let the ref know he fucked up or the opposition are whining fleabags.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MN5 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I’m not sure that many are denying that the Boks got the important bits of luck but sometimes luck is what you make for yourselves.
I’m no great (neutral) fan of the way they play. I despise Rassie’s gamesmanship, but I very much admire the fortitude and achievement that they’ve shown.
Not the prettiest RWC winners, but very worthy. All the whinging about decisions and it only being by one point really denigrates the achievement.
Yeah you have to be some fucken team to get up by a single point three weeks in a row.
Anyone complaining about them not being worthy winners is just a dick really.
But this has given the All Blacks something to chase, as of 2015 they were clearly in front in terms of “amount of WCs won”
Not anymore.
We have been chasing for a while now and we almost got there ,
The biggest concern for me apart from not winning, is we were known as the innovators . Not any more .
Hopefully that breakdancing bloke lives up to his reputation and brings a bit of that with him .
I think we still are. I don't think any other team can attack and unlock defences like we do. Only problem is that we weren't doing the hard, grunt stuff to put ourselves in a position to do that. It was always getting the shit knocked out of us then playing catchup. Hopefully Razor finds the right balance.
We were definitely finding our way through their defence in the second half. With 14 men, we kept them tryless.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
My view on the whole thing is a bit more simplistic,
I think the margins between the top 4 sides are tiny, you could replay the quarter final the next week and get a different result and replay the final and get a different result next time around .
But as always, winning papers over the cracks and losing over emphasis them.
Yes, but the bloody Saffers did it when it mattered. 3 times on the bounce. A tad fortunate maybe v France but they played poorly v England and v NZ in much of the second half and still got over the line.
There are no undeserving RWC winners.
We tend to attach certain phrases to sporting contests in an emotive way to try and make sense of it all. But I’ve never really got the whole deserved or undeserved winners stuff. Your team either wins or doesn’t. It’s that clear cut. And that is why it’s so devastating when you think your team plays well and they don’t get the choccies.
A score line sometimes isn’t a true reflection of what happens on the field. But sometimes it very much is. The weekend in my opinion was clearly in the latter category. It was a genuinely close match.
Reminded me of 2011, only this time we missed the potential go ahead kicks late in the game
remember in 2011 we missed a couple of early shots at goal. Weepu was the culprit.
IIRC he hurt his leg in the warmup
Groin no?
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 fair call.
Although, for whatever reason, it seems for the most part we dont really wanna engage in calling the ref's attention to shit and just want to play, yet seems we have several Super captains always happy to point it out.
Playing/managing the ref is a big part of the game now, like it or not, so we need to join the revolution and start pressing the issue on some of the 50/50 shit, cos if it was the other way, other captains sure as shit will and do at every opportunity.
That said, I am still dead set against cards except for actual foul/dirty play, not these accidental contacts labelled foul play, IMO there is a better way.
100%.
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Still catching up with the thread, but my take is that arbitrary TMO calls didn't decide the match, they made it impossible to tell what would have happened if it was 15v15 the whole match. The RWC final deserved that but instead all I have is an inkling the ABs would have won, but who knows? Terrible outcome and brings the game into disrepute.
I don't think anyone is saying Barnes or the TMO decided the outcome but the TMO certainly had an influence. SF gets 20 for falling over yet you can scream in to a ruck and blow some oke off the ball. SC getting red yet SK smokes Ardie and gets a yellow, EDG and SC get clobbered in the face with arms, FDK knocking on, Ardie clearly winning à turnover, was acknowledged and apologised to yet penalty wasn't reversed and a potential try goes back 5 phases and ruled out. We had plenty of chances to win the game. One kick to go over or a favourable bounce off the ball and it's game.
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Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
really? its not even a week yet, this board will still be talking about it for years
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Can we put the whole Barnes apologising to Ardie thing to bed please
It never happened
Are you sure Mike? He clearly says "I'm sorry mate, I didn't see the replay, I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"
IIRC this was just after seeing it on the big screen - which I take to mean him saying "I didn't see the replay in time and now I've made a decision already"
Because Ardie then says "so that was alright" and Barnes goes "yep"
Sounds a lot like admitting an error (a fucking costly one given it should have gone the other way) if not an apology to me
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I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
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@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
But what of the next sentence Booboo?
"Ardie then says "so that was alright" and Barnes goes "yep"
He's clearly seen a replay at this point.
