RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@kev said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Rugby has issues as a sport that entertains. It’s losing that battle and has real risk issues being a collision sport. Critical to this is the administration being dominated by NH. The NH mindset is based on a static (important) forwards power game whereas SH teams use the ball more. As the game has become more defensively oriented we see endless box kicks and lineout malls dominate. It’s not that they are not part of the game, it’s just about balance. If we want entertainment then the balance should be moved to reward teams that carry, pass, and most importantly speed up the game. You would think that France and Ireland would now want to see a change in administration to that end?
On the collision side, the final demonstrated the problem. Any head contact is an issue. If the tackler is aiming at chest then the head is always in play because of changes in height and lateral movements. The issue then becomes that at speed any card decision is subjective. Not sure how you could every coach for that. As someone said before until they lower the height of all tackles the law and its application is a joke.
Which brings us back to the entertainment factor. Playing with 14 men ruins the spectacle. How the NH power mongers don’t see that I don’t know? The solutions on table are 20m red card or referral system. I favour a combination - referral unless malicious, which should be a high threshold that sees 20 min red.
As for suggestions that Cane’s shoulder tackle was more impactful than head to head, just pure nonsense. Anyone that’s played rugby knows that straight head to head contact is just as bad if not a lot worse.
That's a massive generalisation
France and Ireland can do both
Wales and Scotland prefer a more open running style -
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@sparky said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
TMO missed this.
That is why I have a problem with where rugby has gotten to.
Barnes didn’t see Cane red card, but TMO did. But if TMO didn’t call that but brought things back for Etzebeth red ABs win.
Reductio ad absurdem, why not dispense with the game and just have a coin toss?
A clip of it. How the TMO can ignore this is beyond me.
Good to see the video as opposed to the still image - as it turns out, he can ignore it because EE’s arm was against his body when he made contact then he pushed the player away - that is totally legal at the moment. I wondered if that might be the case, live I thought it was a leading forearm, having seen that grainy video I’ve changed my mind.
Looks fairly clear to me that's not against his body.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
One that went our way was Telea's pass to BB for the try. Felt it was slightly forward.
As was Jordie's just before it
Hands never went backwards
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
If he hadn't gone for the illegal neck roll he wouldn't have been in a position to fall on Bongi
So post tackle, a player has to run into open field to fall over?
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@GarthJ said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter Bok supporter and I agree. A YC is appropriate, but not a RC. Perhaps extend the length of the YC to 15-20 minutes, but don’t eliminate the player altogether.
I think both teams got fucked by referee and TMO intervention, though the ABs more. But even more importantly the spectacle is just ruined when they are always searching for indiscretions and arbitrarily applying the laws. The game constantly stops and it's confusing as fuck as to what is even going on for long periods. It's a terrible spectator sport right now.
This is the crux of the complaint. I don't think anyone is seriously suggested Barnes fucked us. We know had just one kick gone over we win. But fuck me, the same TMO that fucked us against Ireland decided to ref the game from a TV, kissed some clear and obvious shit and demonstrated severe inconsistent officiating.
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@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@sparky said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
TMO missed this.
That is why I have a problem with where rugby has gotten to.
Barnes didn’t see Cane red card, but TMO did. But if TMO didn’t call that but brought things back for Etzebeth red ABs win.
Reductio ad absurdem, why not dispense with the game and just have a coin toss?
A clip of it. How the TMO can ignore this is beyond me.
Good to see the video as opposed to the still image - as it turns out, he can ignore it because EE’s arm was against his body when he made contact then he pushed the player away - that is totally legal at the moment. I wondered if that might be the case, live I thought it was a leading forearm, having seen that grainy video I’ve changed my mind.
Looks fairly clear to me that's not against his body.
but Etzebeth has 19-inch biceps in a far bigger body running over a crouched player, and wouldn't hurt a fly!
World Rugby 2021 Aims of the Head Contact Process
"Mitigation will not apply for intentional or highly reckless acts of foul play..""The process is designed to protect the head, neck and throat area of players. The process can be applied to:
• High tackles
• Shoulder charges
• Dangerous cleanouts
• Head-to-head collisions
• Leading elbow / forearm " -
@PecoTrain said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@PecoTrain There's no way a human as a ref in that environment can get all the calls right. A lot of people forget that fact.
@BerniesCorner I accept that and I also accept that to win you have to try and score enough points to take the ref out of the equation.
Doing that is easy to say but very difficult to do when you have had players sent off. Scoring points when the ref and his assistants sit back and let the TMO make the calls for ~50% of the game isn't missing a few calls.
Barnes and the TMO shit the bed with the Frizell YC after 3 minutes - pulling an obscure rule out of the rulebook seemingly because a South African player got injured. The reverse camera angle appeared to show Frizell getting out of the way of Kitshoffs forearm and there was forearm on head contact from Kitshoff albeit it slight and probably only worthy of a penalty given Frizells avoidence.
You're obviously watching a different game from me
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@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Question: Why can’t we revert to the system where TMOs get to intervene only in cases of foul play or when asked to do so by the referee? Imagine a court system where the judge on the bench’s every adjudication is second-guessed by a shadowy back room panel pouring over case law going back to the 17th century. Think about the injustice of this system. It’s QCs at dawn during three-hour judiciary hearings in post-game proceedings, but a back room bunker decides within minutes in the middle of a game where a yellow card should be upgraded to a red. In both the NRL and AFL, these decisions are left till a judiciary hearing and the full quota of players is kept on the field - a sensible decision for safety reasons if nothing else. World Rugby has this wrong. Red cards should be limited to obvious intentionally foul play. It is clear that so many of these cards are being given for either accidental incidents or poor technique or just a sudden change in position. I know the legal eagles at WR are paranoid about potential class actions from players suffering premature dementia because of repeated head-knocks, but this system is clearly not working. It defies common sense and it puts hugely capable and fair referees like Wayne Barnes in a dreadful position.
Because they'd still find a way to fuck the game. He yellowed SF for what? Falling over FFS. Foul play is a deliberate act to wreck a bloke. I personally believe SC and SK were penalties at best. EE running forearm into SC could argue that is more deliberate than any other decision.
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@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Tell Agree. But whether it’s lack of bums on seats or greedy management discounting imagined future profits by paying excessively for players today, it adds up to the same commercial problem - diminishing margins and a cadre of club owners squeezing the lemon too hard for short-term profit. I still think the game is buggered. I predict the new global competition will be a failure, simply because WR is doing what it always does - fattening the calf at the centre and starving everybody else to keep its cadre of pigs at the trough in business and first class airfares. I stand by what I said. Rugby Union is ripe for a disruptor to simplify the rules, reward endeavour and creativity and market the game more broadly. As it stands, they’re playing at being a mass market sport with a mass market budget in a narrowcast universe.
Already been done
It's called Rugby League
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@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
academic question but if SF moves out of his way to avoid a forearm and collapses on a bok (not seeing him) is he still liable for a yellow card? As
a. not targeting limbs (eyes elsewhere) and
b. mitigating circumstancesalthough Barnes did not seem to consider a. anyway.
Oh well, just an academic question. Personally I thought SF might not have entered the gate/moving offside and the clearing was a bit risky position-wise anyway.
It was a neck roll ffs
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@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Tell Yes, Portugal showed the way. They were playing like the ABs. Look at this way. Which country do the minnows and kids in backyards aspire to be? Where do the dreams reside? The way the Erasmus-coached Boks play or the way the ABs play? Which side inspires the advertisers?
SA
Multi-ethnic
Multi-cultural
Rags to riches -
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
academic question but if SF moves out of his way to avoid a forearm and collapses on a bok (not seeing him) is he still liable for a yellow card? As
a. not targeting limbs (eyes elsewhere) and
b. mitigating circumstancesalthough Barnes did not seem to consider a. anyway.
Oh well, just an academic question. Personally I thought SF might not have entered the gate/moving offside and the clearing was a bit risky position-wise anyway.
It was a neck roll ffs
But that wasn't what was officiated? As I said, this was an academic (hypothetical) question
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@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The counter argument to that is a tournament should build to a crescendo. It didn't.
It shouldn't peak in the quarters.Both the finalists played in the QF
I don't see your argument
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
If he hadn't gone for the illegal neck roll he wouldn't have been in a position to fall on Bongi
So post tackle, a player has to run into open field to fall over?
It wasn't a tackle
He was correctly penalised for a neck roll
Then the TMO brought the fall to Barnes' attention
They deemed it was a fall not targeted thuggery and the YC (for the neck roll and resulting fall) remained a YC
I don't understand how we're even discussing it
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
academic question but if SF moves out of his way to avoid a forearm and collapses on a bok (not seeing him) is he still liable for a yellow card? As
a. not targeting limbs (eyes elsewhere) and
b. mitigating circumstancesalthough Barnes did not seem to consider a. anyway.
Oh well, just an academic question. Personally I thought SF might not have entered the gate/moving offside and the clearing was a bit risky position-wise anyway.
It was a neck roll ffs
He wasn't penalised for a neck FFS. He was penalised for falling over.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
If he hadn't gone for the illegal neck roll he wouldn't have been in a position to fall on Bongi
So post tackle, a player has to run into open field to fall over?
It wasn't a tackle
He was correctly penalised for a neck roll
Then the TMO brought the fall to Barnes' attention
They deemed it was a fall not targeted thuggery and the YC (for the neck roll and resulting fall) remained a YC
I don't understand how we're even discussing it
Because you're wrong.
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Kick it out
Fucking mental when their hooker can’t throw the ball
I don't think we've got one in Wales that manages it tbh 🤔🤣
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The counter argument to that is a tournament should build to a crescendo. It didn't.
It shouldn't peak in the quarters.Both the finalists played in the QF
I don't see your argument
Of course the finalists played in the QFs
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
If he hadn't gone for the illegal neck roll he wouldn't have been in a position to fall on Bongi
So post tackle, a player has to run into open field to fall over?
It wasn't a tackle
He was correctly penalised for a neck roll
Then the TMO brought the fall to Barnes' attention
They deemed it was a fall not targeted thuggery and the YC (for the neck roll and resulting fall) remained a YC
I don't understand how we're even discussing it
I understood it was for a fall, I just want to understand the process behind the ruling. I'm not trying to overturn the ruling or attack the officials.
There were neckrolls throughout the game that were missed, I'm not asking about them as it is the fall onto limbs one I'd like to know more about as I don't recall seeing that before. -
Take your pick:
A couple of baffling decisions from the officials, an over-enthusiastic TMO, the incredible defence of the Boks, Pollard’s super boot, our dodgy goalkicking, the decision to turn down points on offer, Cane’s bad tackle that led to a rightful Red card, the ABs midfield and outfield backs being a bit off their game, Foster being out coached by Razzie, SA being perhaps a wee bit hungrier and wilier.
Whatever. The main thing is that it hurts.
It just wasn’t our night, despite an awesome effort from the boys that left me super proud. In the end it was as close as it could have been.
It just wasn’t our night.
But then I realise there have been times when it’s been that tight and it’s been our night or it’s been our day. Eden Park 1981, Loftus 96, RWC Final 2011 when it mattered so much after Pike’s River and the Christchurch earthquakes. Maybe the big lesson from this is that the fates won’t always elide for you however much you try to make them.
Anyway that’s enough feeling sorry for ourselves IMHO. Time to look forward to 2024 and the start of the 2027 RWC campaign. In Razor we trust! Keep the faith! Go Black!
