Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@antipodean said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
The marvellous multicultural benefits of rampant third world migration?
Can speak for Oz, but in the UK the biggest supporters of Hamas (to the point of refusing to condemn the attacks) have been some senior Labour & ex-Labour politicians and Green MSPs.
And possibly Sonny Bill Williams
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
and I try to see both sides of the Palestinian/ Israeli issue
Thats good to read. Most don't seem to.
And just to be clear for the likes of yourself I'm in no way justifying or supporting this action. Quite the opposite. As these deaths will be revenged 10 times or more. Just more pointless killing because of hate and fear.
And it's not all Palestinians. Most suffer terrible conditions (from what I've read) imposed by Israel and cope with life as best they can. Without lashing back much.
This action will just mean more deaths and killing of mostly innocent people. Not just now but in future years
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@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
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@Frank said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
And Millions in kick backs and bribes.
Cant forget those. -
@Frank said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
And aren't Saudi Arabia the #1 state sponsor of Islamic terrorism? And yet they are very much in bed with America, an interesting juxtaposition. I was not aware of the USA giving a shit ton of cash to Iran. Funny how the world works at the international political level
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@canefan said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@Frank said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
And aren't Saudi Arabia the #1 state sponsor of Islamic terrorism? And yet they are very much in bed with America, an interesting juxtaposition. I was not aware of the USA giving a shit ton of cash to Iran. Funny how the world works at the international political level
My wife worked at an Iranian bank in City of London few years ago - big part of her daily task was buying and selling US Dollars
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@Winger said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
and I try to see both sides of the Palestinian/ Israeli issue
Thats good to read. Most don't seem to.
And just to be clear for the likes of yourself I'm in no way justifying or supporting this action. Quite the opposite. As these deaths will be revenged 10 times or more. Just more pointless killing because of hate and fear.
And it's not all Palestinians. Most suffer terrible conditions (from what I've read) imposed by Hamas
Fixed that for you.
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the footage on twitter is sickening, the arseholes celebrating it in front of embassy's / Opera Houses can get to fuck. Interesting that those people who protested 'Let women speak' events around the world, accusing women of being 'literal nazis' haven't bothered to show up and shout at people screaming 'gas the jews' in Sydney. I've had to come off twitter as its so disgusting at the moment, reading emails from headmasters of Jewish schools in London suggesting that children can come to school without a blazer if they would like to prevent them from being identified is soul destroying. What the fuck is wrong with people?
Israel will react with horrendous force, hard to see a way out of this for anyone.
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@canefan said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@Frank said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
And aren't Saudi Arabia the #1 state sponsor of Islamic terrorism? And yet they are very much in bed with America, an interesting juxtaposition. I was not aware of the USA giving a shit ton of cash to Iran. Funny how the world works at the international political level
If the US stopped fucking meddling in other people's business, things would be a lot simpler
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@MiketheSnow said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
If the US stopped fucking meddling in other people's business, things would be a lot simpler
I am sadly convinced powerful people in the US think the world wants to be like them and to be converted by them. In terms of the last century of foreign politics, I don't think they have been very effective. On the other hand (and shoot me down all the anti Hegelians out there) but every time a country becomes powerful (Russia, China) they seem to go along the same path as the US. Maybe Japan was the exception but it seems to be human nature.
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I've spent a bit of time trying to educate myself about this, as I simply can't understand why the left are so pro Palestine. I've started off with a point of view of absolutely no skin in the game so completely neutral.
This article from the BBC is quite good:
Bloomberg have a good one too, but due to their paywall, I couldn't see it when I went back in.
When it comes to understanding why the left are so pro palestine, this a decent read. Although it's a bit of a word salad in places, it explores the underlying basis and argues points of view from different perspectives:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/singling-out-israel-perspective-from-left/
In summary my positions are now this - happy for some debate/disagreement and to learn more.
- This situation is more likely to get worse than better. US / UK staunch support for Israel against a majority Muslim population is a simple take which explains most of it.
- UK were influential in creation of Israel, but the US are now the main supporters. Lots of influential Jews in US politics means the US support will be staunch and unwavering
- Hamas / Palestinians are not the same thing and should never be viewed as such. Hamas are a militant group which claims to represent Palestine but essentially commit atrocities which only help to continue oppression of the Palestinian people
- Israel are far from innocent in this. Yes, the latest attack by Hamas has been largely civilian focused but there have been plenty of Palestinian collateral damage by Israeli forces. It would be naive to suggest none of these were on purpose.
So, to understand why the left are so pro Palestine? A lot of it is anti US / Conservatives using the underlying premise of apartheid. Truth is you have to pretty selective of the media you read to hold such an extreme view.
I honestly don't see a resolution, ever.
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I think point 3 is key
Hamas in my very limited understanding are the Taliban
They're in charge but don't represent the wishes of the majority
But if you go against them you're fucked
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@MiketheSnow said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
I think point 3 is key
Hamas in my very limited understanding are the Taliban
They're in charge but don't represent the wishes of the majority
But if you go against them you're fucked
They voted them in. I understand not everyone voted for them, of course, but they were elected.
I’m not quite sure what voters expected given the policy (to the best of my knowledge) has always been the destruction of Israel.
https://www.npr.org/2006/01/29/5176856/hamas-victory-divides-palestinians
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@gt12 said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@MiketheSnow said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
I think point 3 is key
Hamas in my very limited understanding are the Taliban
They're in charge but don't represent the wishes of the majority
But if you go against them you're fucked
They voted them in. I understand not everyone voted for them, of course, but they were elected.
I’m not quite sure what voters expected given the policy (to the best of my knowledge) has always been the destruction of Israel.
https://www.npr.org/2006/01/29/5176856/hamas-victory-divides-palestinians
17 years ago…you’d assume out of some form of desperation and you’d further assume/hope they regret that decision
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Lil conspiracy theory here, and like all the best ones, is borderline believable, especially in relation to Israel if not the US
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@MajorRage for insight into the British left and their lurch towards antisemitism, this is a good start
The Left's Jewish Problem - Jeremy Corbyn, Israel and Anti-Semitism, Updated Edition https://amzn.eu/d/8vCuIA0
From https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/3712485987 :
“Rich argues that when the standard of living in Briton rose after WWII, it became less popular to advocate for a socialist revolution, and so the left wing parties adapted by focusing more on social issues such as racism, sexism and imperialisms. These new leftists, he argued, saw the state of Israel as the embodiment of everything they disliked (a group of white settlers backed by America, displacing and suppressing people of color). The Israeli-Palestine dispute was easily molded to fit narrative about anti-imperialisms and anti-racism, Rich argues, so that is why leftists of today care much more about Israel than, say, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia, two western allies who commit worse human rights atrocities than Israel. In this way, being anti-Israel and pro-Palestine became more of a symbolic gesture, a way to prove to other leftists that you were part of their cause.
However, as time passed, these criticisms towards Israel became increasingly frenzied. It became fashionable to compare Israel to nazi-Germany, and to attack the doctrine of Zionism as inherently racist and fascistic (which Rich states comes from a failure to understand Zionism and Jewish culture). From this, we got conspiracy theories that Zionists actually worked with Hitler and the nazis, as well as the strange idea that Holocaust remembrance is a tool of Zionists used to oppress Palestine. All the while, support for Israel basically dropped to zero within the party. Rich argues that this culture, where unhinged and conspiratorial attacks on Israel were not only tolerated, but applauded, lead us to where we are today, where the Labor Party has received hundreds of complaints of antisemitism, and where Jewish support for the party is in the single digits.
Interestingly, Rich also asserts that part of the reason why the left has been unable to rout out anti-semitism is because leftists have traditionally seen themselves as anti-racist, so the idea that racism has snuck past them unnoticed seems inconceivable to them. Also, he argues that our idea of racism is too narrow. On the left, a common idea is that racism is power plus prejudice. The problem with this, according to Rich is that Jewish people are not terribly disenfranchised financially compared to some other ethnic groups, so the leftist might argue that any anti-semitism that does exist doesn't really matter. Overall, an interesting and well argued book about how a group of people ironically enabled racism in their attempts to be anti-racist. I would recommend this to anyone who still believes that the accusations against Corbyn and his party are all just a big hoax cooked up by the Tories.”
When you add in that Labour have openly courted the UK immigrant vote in the last 40/50 years, especially in urban areas, and have done nothing to curb the antisemitic invective that is spoken by some of their MPs (especially those who actively play up to their voter base’s anti-Semitic feelings), you get to where the UK left has got to.
There has always been a Jewish problem. Go back centuries to find a litany of pogroms and anti-Semitic feeling from nations and peoples who have looked for a scapegoat. The most famous Jew in literature is Shylock, depicted as greedy, jealous and vengeful. The depiction of Jews has barely moved on from that it seems.
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@canefan said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
And aren't Saudi Arabia the #1 state sponsor of Islamic terrorism? And yet they are very much in bed with America, an interesting juxtaposition.
Saudi Arabia and Iran are fighting proxy wars in loads of places so they are probably as bad as each other.
The Saudi's and the US aren't exactly the closest of buddies at the moment but there are signs of a rapprochement. Some analysts are saying that the Hamas attacks are a ploy by Iran to derail that.
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@MiketheSnow said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@canefan said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@Frank said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
@voodoo said in Israel, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ... Middle East:
Qatar generally gets a pretty free ride internationally when you consider all the support it provides to Hamas and others
Well, you have to take into account that they put on a great soccer World Cup!!!
And as Westerners, we will overlook all evil for the sake of a good game!!
And aren't Saudi Arabia the #1 state sponsor of Islamic terrorism? And yet they are very much in bed with America, an interesting juxtaposition. I was not aware of the USA giving a shit ton of cash to Iran. Funny how the world works at the international political level
If the US stopped fucking meddling in other people's business, things would be a lot simpler
Simpler in that Ukraine would now be part of Russia? China would invade Taiwan? Israel would be wiped from the map?
The US are no angels but don’t kid yourself they’re worse than the despotic regimes around the world
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