All Blacks 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
Calls follow a pattern so that people don't get confused.
Problem: Our lineout is getting dominated at 4 and 2. Can't throw long because the hooker sucks.
Solution: Stop kicking the ball out.Problem: Our scrum is getting mollered.
Solution: More quick taps.Problem: Our 8 can't run with the ball.
Solution: Don't have the 8 run with the ball.ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
Problem: Our 10 is green but we have one of the best 9s.
Solution: So have the 9 make more decisions to help the 10.None of this is a different plan, it's common fucking sense for anyone that's been playing longer than eight minutes. They're options to manage the game
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@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
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Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
how many of those "fast rucks" were the messy ones where the ball squirted out because the French got a hand to it?
Obviously that wouldn't show up there. It would partially show up in subjective stats like 'bad passes' (France 10, NZ 16)
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? o
It isn't a different plan, it's simply an available variation you can adopt depending on the game status. It doesn't require changes to the team to implement.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
It's nuances I suppose. Realistically, the overall principles of the gameplan shouldn't really change, perhaps barring one-off situations where the coach tries to counteract the opposition, but that is rarely applicable in rugby, because the game is largely played with 15 players running from in front of 15 defenders.
For the All Blacks, I don't think losing one player should drastically change the gameplan, because when you have that many players to choose from, you should be able to pick a squad which allows you to roughly stick to Plan A. Going to Plan B right off the bat because of one injury feels short-sighted to me.
I think losing Aaron Smith is the only place where I could accept not being able to follow Plan A, because there is nobody in the world who can provide the key thing he brings to the game - speed to the ruck, and accuracy of pass. Don't get me wrong, there are others who are very good, but nobody on Smith's level, so you'd need to adapt there. But to me, losing Jordie Barrett and Shannon Frizell shouldn't really fuck up your whole gameplan.
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@antipodean can you elaborate on what you would constitute a different gameplan? im not talking about game status, im talking from week to week depending on who we have, who were playing and what they have
regardless of the use of the term "gameplan", what i and i think other are saying is its not unreasonable to say different players have different strengths and weaknesses and we should have variations depending on who you put out there to play to their strengths...rather than expecting everyone to be able to do exactly the same thing
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
Yes because Barrett was also shit for The Blues so that is a form thing and probably should not have been selected on form not reputation..
You ignore what I said about the Blues though... was Barrett also shit at the Blues because of the structures, which were largely found wanting? The Blues got out of jail many a time because of Ioane and Telea... we will never get a true answer on whether it is coaching, because we aren't going to see him under Razor I don't think.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean can you elaborate on what you would constitute a different gameplan? im not talking about game status, im talking from week to week depending on who we have, who were playing and what they have
regardless of the use of the term "gameplan", what i and i think other are saying is its not unreasonable to say different players have different strengths and weaknesses and we should have variations depending on who you put out there to play to their strengths...rather than expecting everyone to be able to do exactly the same thing
Do you think though, that when you pick your squad, you should be looking for key attributes?
Example, is J Barrett's carrying more important than his playmaking/kicking?
If the answer is yes, you'd pick McLeod, and then simplify his options down to the core role. Or vice-versa, pick Havili and you don't use the carrying element as much.The issue for mine, is Havili and ALB bring the added extra J Barrett offers, and arguably in some aspects do them better, but they can't bring the key thing J Barrett offers - carrying.
I feel like adaptions should be small, or as someone else said, simplifying the gameplan, as opposed to changing it. Basically, an option 1 and and an option 1a, rather than going from option 1 to option 2.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
I'm posing it as a question... to me, the question is, do we think Barrett could go from being the best player in the world, to being in his current form so quickly, even accounting for age and the head knocks. To me it seems unlikely?
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
Maybe, but with BB it used to be his extreme pace which got him out of trouble and made him look a million bucks.
I can’t see that coming back.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
Maybe, but with BB it used to be his extreme pace which got him out of trouble and made him look a million bucks.
I can’t see that coming back.
I'm not sure he has lost that pace though. Still looks lightning on defence, he just seems less willing to take the ball to the line. The question is, is that gameplan, or is Barrett.
To me it seems, for right or for wrong, the All Blacks have decided they aren't going to take the rush defence on through challenging the line, and would prefer to work the chip kick, which I think the opposition has caught on to. Blame Foster, blame Schmidt, but I think if it wasn't the gameplan, then they would play Jordan or Stevenson, or a genuine 15 at the back, rather than a kicking option. Even Jordie Barrett at his best at 15, was never a Ben Smith, running from the back slicing the game open.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I feel like adaptions should be small, or as someone else said, simplifying the gameplan, as opposed to changing it. Basically, an option 1 and and an option 1a, rather than going from option 1 to option 2.
i think when we're talking about how its numbered we're talking about semantics, much like differentiating between styles of play or variations or gameplans
i think you need to one of two thing
A. if there is a clear gameplan/way of playing that will beat everyone, something other teams aren't set up to defend, then you pick a squad that can implement that and you pick reserves that are as close to like for like as possible, predicable once other teams see it but but you're set up to implement it it perfectly. The down side to this being you might not select a great player if what theyre good at doesnt gel with the plan
B. you pick all the best players and come up with game plans that work to their strengths, those game plans might be fairly traditional but with the best players they can still work. Because you have a variety of players you should have a variety of plans to compliment their strengths
....having one game plan....and a wide variety of players who all have different strengths and weaknesses....doesnt feel like it would take a genius to see that might not work
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby i think you need to one of two thing
A. if there is a clear gameplan/way of playing that will beat everyone, something other teams aren't set up to defend, then you pick a squad that can implement that and you pick reserves that are as close to like for like as possible, predicable once other teams see it but but you're set up to implement it it perfectly. The down side to this being you might not select a great player if what theyre good at doesnt gel with the plan
B. you pick all the best players and come up with game plans that work to their strengths, those game plans might be fairly traditional but with the best players they can still work. Because you have a variety of players you should have a variety of plans to compliment their strengths
....having one game plan....and a wide variety of players who all have different strengths and weaknesses....doesnt feel like it would take a genius to see that might not work
I'd argue that with the best All Black and Springbok teams, you more or less know/knew exactly what they were going to do, but they would back that their superior quality would get them through.
Maybe I'm biased, but I think the All Blacks still have the best backs in the world, certainly the most elusive, so we should be able to craft a gameplan which gets the best out of it. I think the ABs have been guilty of opting for b. without actually considering how it plays out. The ABs also did it in 2019, by picking S Barrett on the blindside, and the duel playmakers.
If I was building my All Black team, I'd look at Ioane, Telea and Jordan, and go there are the guys who are most likely to get us points. We don't really have the best most dominant forwards in the world, so we are going to play fast.
I then pick Aaron Smith as my first five, and Mo'unga or Barrett at 10. I don't think it matters which ones. If we are going down this route of looking to go wide, J Barrett is obviously the best 12, as he can both act as a playmaker, whilst also keeping the defence honest by carrying hard, which creates space on the outside. You then need another outside back, and it would boil down to the fact you we want to play counter-attacking rugby. I think there is a fair argument, that if we were looking for elusiveness, Narawa is a superb option, or alternatively, a left-footed kicking option might be quite handy, so you'd look to a Fainga'anuku, a Nareki or a Nanai-Seturo for balance.
We are working a gameplan around mobility, but need a platform, so you'd pick the tight five as they have, and then you'd be looking at what other roles you need to fill. It is clear that you would want two robust, noted ball-carriers, one of whom is a lineout option. At 6, that is Frizell and Finau, and at 8, in my opinion, someone who is going to do the dirty work, making a lot of tackles. Jacobson. Savea at 7. Bob's your uncle.
The perfect encaptulation of Foster picking the players before working out how he is going to make them work together, was the weird selections of RTS. Shoe-horned into 12 for the best part of two years, only for us to realise his best position is actually 15 once he has already signed to go back to league.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
I'm posing it as a question... to me, the question is, do we think Barrett could go from being the best player in the world, to being in his current form so quickly, even accounting for age and the head knocks. To me it seems unlikely?
it's not quickly mate. he was world player of the year in 2017.
