All Blacks 2023
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
Lomax. Is he that good or is he just good compared to others ? ( without Red Beard and Bart around I’m fucked if I know )
Retallick. Was a legend…..not quite the player he was.
Frizell. Getting pumped up on the back of one superb game. How many of those has he, or can he, string together ?
Cane. Was very good……not quite the player he was.
> J Barrett. Has done a fine job at 12 but is he genuinely world class ? ( actually compared to his back ups he is )
Obviously I'll say fook yes, but since it was only a freak series of events that got old custard guts to even put him there, we haven't seen him in 12 all that much yet.
You can say the same thing about Jordan. Yes he's had some bad games. But he's not had an extended run at 15 to get comfortable because Foster persists with the husk that is BB
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
Lomax. Is he that good or is he just good compared to others ? ( without Red Beard and Bart around I’m fucked if I know )
Retallick. Was a legend…..not quite the player he was.
Frizell. Getting pumped up on the back of one superb game. How many of those has he, or can he, string together ?
Cane. Was very good……not quite the player he was.
> J Barrett. Has done a fine job at 12 but is he genuinely world class ? ( actually compared to his back ups he is )
Obviously I'll say fook yes, but since it was only a freak series of events that got old custard guts to even put him there, we haven't seen him in 12 all that much yet.
You can say the same thing about Jordan. Yes he's had some bad games. But he's not had an extended run at 15 to get comfortable because Foster persists with the husk that is BB
Yeah, I'm not convinced about Jordan at 15, but he'll no doubt be the main man there in 2024 and we'll see that I'm probably wrong. Funny how so many of us have basically written this year off and are thinking about the hopeful new dawn of 2024.
Even more funny would be if Foster by some miracle actually pulls this off. If you saw him in a pub in future years, you'd have to give him a slap first before buying him a beer.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby but BB is kicking poorly (the worldy on the weekend being the exception)
for me its straight forward, to get the ball to our weapons at 11,13,14 it needs to go through a second Boss which is normally the 15, 9 > 10 > 12 > 13 > 11/14 just doesnt work against the rush defence....but when we go through BB either of 9 or 10....he kicks it. I would like to see the 15 actually inject himself and either draw a defender before unleashing other....or if he times it right breaking the line
I feel Jordan is more likely to do that than BB
The fact of the matter is his form at Super level has also fallen off a cliff.
Some peoples contention is that Beaudy is only copping flak because of Fozzies poor game plan.But his super rugby highlight reel only consists of stuff in a Hurricanes shirt.
He has done the square root of fuck all for The Blues and has been so uncommanding at both 10 and 15 that he has essentially been job sharing with Stephen Perofeta from week to week.
He is a shot fighter.
Agree with this. What if Foster’s master game plan is “Beaudy, go out there and do your thing”.
Attempt enough up and unders and cross kicks and eventually you will get “proof” of how awesome it is.
It was the same at the Blues last couple of years.
Is it a coincidence that Foster and Mcdonald had the same game plan? Or was it the common denominator of BB being given free reign to try his trick shots and it not being a winning formula? -
@Rancid-Schnitzel I think he'll have competition in the next cycle.
Stephenson and Zarn Sullivan will push him.
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@Jimmy-Jimmy said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it a coincidence that Foster and Mcdonald had the same game plan? Or was it the common denominator of BB being given free reign to try his trick shots and it not being a winning formula?
The Emperor has no percentage plays.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby but BB is kicking poorly (the worldy on the weekend being the exception)
for me its straight forward, to get the ball to our weapons at 11,13,14 it needs to go through a second Boss which is normally the 15, 9 > 10 > 12 > 13 > 11/14 just doesnt work against the rust defence....but when we go through BB either of 9 or 10....he kicks it. I would like to see the 15 actually inject himself and either draw a defender before unleashing other....or if he times it right breaking the line
I feel Jordan is more likely to do that than BB
You can debate the first point if you want, personally I think his general range kicking was actually fairly good, and was something noted at the time.
With your second point, your basically just saying you don't like Foster's tactics with ball in hand, and you'd like to see us do something different. If Beauden Barrett wasn't following the gameplan, contrary to popular belief, he'd have been dropped. If the coaches didn't want him to do the chip kicks, he'd stop doing them, or he wouldn't be playing.
Barrett (and to a lesser extent Mo'unga) have just become the fall guys for when the All Blacks attack goes wrong.
I find it exceedingly odd that numerous people on this forum keep complaining about the fullback in modern Test rugby. The issue is the ability to secure quick ruck ball on the front foot. Address that and the picture changes immensely.
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
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But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
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@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
Ys. That first half we were dictating the game and if not for some poor handling and last pass decisions making would've had two or more additional tries. Then the second half momentum swung with penalties and the bench couldn't address it.
If I was a coach, that first half would give me some confidence and the second half the work-ons.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
He's AN Issue amongst other issues. Not the exclusive issue.
An issue that sums up the Foster era. Stubbornly sticking with a player despite piling amounts of evidence that he's past it. Just like he sticks with Christie on the bench - just like he sticks with an unbalanced backrow. Etc etc.
Delusional and Ignorant actually is a good summary of the Foster era.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
He's AN Issue amongst other issues. Not the exclusive issue.
Exactly one of many, but one that puts the forwards under pressure by making them play so much in our half (and this is no just beaudies fault, this is a clear Foster tactic) and also puts the backs under pressure with his poor performances.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
the fact we dont think the 32 best rugby players can do the same is ridiculous
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
Ruck speed seconds France NZ 0-3 25 45 3-6 17 21 6+ 10 7 Rucks below 3sec:
France: 42%
NZ: 56% -
how many of those "fast rucks" were the messy ones where the ball squirted out because the French got a hand to it?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
Calls follow a pattern so that people don't get confused.
Problem: Our lineout is getting dominated at 4 and 2. Can't throw long because the hooker sucks.
Solution: Stop kicking the ball out.Problem: Our scrum is getting mollered.
Solution: More quick taps.Problem: Our 8 can't run with the ball.
Solution: Don't have the 8 run with the ball.ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
Problem: Our 10 is green but we have one of the best 9s.
Solution: So have the 9 make more decisions to help the 10.None of this is a different plan, it's common fucking sense for anyone that's been playing longer than eight minutes. They're options to manage the game
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@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
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Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
