All Blacks 2023
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
It's well documented that JB only got a chance because the others were hurt. Foster spent a ridiculous amount of time persisting with players who aren't good enough at the expense of finding some that are good enough
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@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
I concur mate. It's been a shit show
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@mariner4life given most rugby we watch at present, lineouts are the more frequent set peice restart than scrums, having a functioning lineout becomes more crucial, particularly one that can pressure the opposition lineout.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
I think them not starting Jacobson is really telling. They should have either (1) played Vaii at lock and Barrett at 6, or (2) Jacobson at 6. It can't be good for moral to be benched after only getting 30 odd minuted against SA when he wasn't the issue.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
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@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
I think that is wrong, we sent up two jumpers when they had a 5 metre line out and disrupted their ball, even if we didn't win it. They couldn't get their maul game going as a result, I think that is the tactic for us to use.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
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The problem of having Savea and Cane in the same lineup is multi-dimensional. Grace (a real lineout specialist) or Sotutu at No.8 with another option at 6 would really be another arrow in the quiver.
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@Donsteppa quite difficult to do when you aren’t allowed to learn from your mistakes and develop over a period of time.
ABs need the ABs XV to provide these types of opportunities to players with potential who aren’t quite AB level yet.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2023:
im beginning to think the best way to get rated he is not to get picked
Partly because the blokes who did get picked at the weekend didn't exactly help their case
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
100% agree I describe them as 6.5s they aren't really 7s and they aren't really 6's. By that I mean they play too loose to really be 6's and too tight to really be 7's. They all do sort of the same thing in general play. Looking at France if we kicked deep they always had Alldritt back as a truck it up option or support. Like we used to do with Read and So'oialo before that. But we had no one its not part of our 8s role any more.
Looking at our loose forwards in the world cup squad they can all play at least 2 roles and in the case of Savea he has played all 3 at one time or another.
I am sure its too suit our style of play. Or something but maybe we have gone to far in this idea of total rugby. Where everyone needs to do a bit of everything. Maybe the pendulum needs to swing back the other way. Towards more specialist players.
