All Blacks 2023
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
Victor Vito ( 2015 vintage ) would be pretty handy right now too
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
The French were also missing some key players,I think you a clutching at straws there.
Even if you add those players and some played the game before v SA.
We still were just not good enough once again.Tactics were poor and we can not handle any sustained pressure no matter what personal we put out there.
We revert back to the same shit under pressure the French game mirrored the SA game.I'm not necessarily excusing it, but perspective is important. Mo'unga kicks one of those other two conversions, a bit of luck and we could have pinched that game. I'd hardly say it was a 14 point game.
That Ramos touchline ‘transformation’ was hugely significant.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
Victor Vito ( 2015 vintage ) would be pretty handy right now too
Or Luatua.
Collins didn't need to be a lineout option because of Rodders. And that's the thing - without changing Savea or Cane, you need tall timber at 6. Or you compromise your lineout.
Reflecting on the game, this was one where we had chances, particularly at the end of the first half. Hot conditions should suit us to play an uptempo, skill game and ruip teams apart at the back end of teh halves - but we came up a real dud. Codie Taylor's decision to hero ball was a shocker; you expect more of a mental game from your leaders. Leadership was the main issue out there, decision making under pressure. Even with the issues aroudn the park, we should have been in there with 20 to go.
I also should have picked SBarrett for MOTM; he was superb, such a massive engine.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2023:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
Victor Vito ( 2015 vintage ) would be pretty handy right now too
Or Luatua.
Collins didn't need to be a lineout option because of Rodders. And that's the thing - without changing Savea or Cane, you need tall timber at 6. Or you compromise your lineout.
Reflecting on the game, this was one where we had chances, particularly at the end of the first half. Hot conditions should suit us to play an uptempo, skill game and ruip teams apart at the back end of teh halves - but we came up a real dud. Codie Taylor's decision to hero ball was a shocker; you expect more of a mental game from your leaders. Leadership was the main issue out there, decision making under pressure. Even with the issues aroudn the park, we should have been in there with 20 to go.
I also should have picked SBarrett for MOTM; he was superb, such a massive engine.
The conditions dictated that ball security was difficult. I didn't like that we kept pushing the pop passes under pressure. Just didn't show great IQ when it was required
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We were the better side in the 1st half and really should have been 15 points up based on the opportunities we missed.
that would have given a different outcome to the 2nd half.
I agree that missing 5 key players had a major effect on the team, especially with the late scrubbing of Cane and moving Vaai to No. 6.
In time, Vaai may become a great lock for us, but at the moment he is a lightweight lock who plays 10kgs lighter than he actually is and it was a real wtf moment to see him with a No. 6 in his back.
It shows the folly of the RWC squad balance that in the very first game we have failed the first stress test of our squad by picking an inexperienced lock to play out of position at No. 6, while not using a loose forward that you picked for the squad
I thought the AB’s could win this World Cup but they need to have all of their best players on the park. That seems pretty unrealistic to not expect injuries so it looks like we are in course for a qtr final exit unless we can keep everyone healthy.
Still a long way to go in this tournament (games and time) and quite often teams who look good in the early stages, lose form or fall away in later rounds.
Bottom line is, we need to improve.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2023:
We were the better side in the 1st half and really should have been 15 points up based on the opportunities we missed.
that would have given a different outcome to the 2nd half.
I agree that missing 5 key players had a major effect on the team, especially with the late scrubbing of Cane and moving Vaai to No. 6.
In time, Vaai may become a great lock for us, but at the moment he is a lightweight lock who plays 10kgs lighter than he actually is and it was a real wtf moment to see him with a No. 6 in his back.
It shows the folly of the RWC squad balance that in the very first game we have failed the first stress test of our squad by picking an inexperienced lock to play out of position at No. 6, while not using a loose forward that you picked for the squad
I thought the AB’s could win this World Cup but they need to have all of their best players on the park. That seems pretty unrealistic to not expect injuries so it looks like we are in course for a qtr final exit unless we can keep everyone healthy.
Still a long way to go in this tournament (games and time) and quite often teams who look good in the early stages, lose form or fall away in later rounds.
Bottom line is, we need to improve.
Selection of the squad, then of the match day team put us in a hole that we couldn't escape from. I don't have faith that Fozzie will pick the right team when it matters most. The Va'ai pick was madness when you lay it out like that. And now he sends for Blackadder, who is not the big 6 to fill the breach while Frizell is out. Spots are so precious when you are trying to win this tournament, and the signs are there that he's already realising he's screwed that up
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@DaGrubster you can't talk about injuries affecting us without taking into account that it was a below strength France that beat us: starting loosehead, 10, centre all out. hooker injured and off early.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kirwan At this stage I'd just about take 'looks busy'.
We have that guy already, his name is Ardie Savea
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2023:
Collins didn't need to be a lineout option because of Rodders. And that's the thing - without changing Savea or Cane, you need tall timber at 6. Or you compromise your lineout.
Are you implying Rodders was a giant in the lineout?!
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2023:
Collins didn't need to be a lineout option because of Rodders. And that's the thing - without changing Savea or Cane, you need tall timber at 6. Or you compromise your lineout.
Are you implying Rodders was a giant in the lineout?!
nah but he was a solid option.
Edit: and in fairness, the lineout when the loosies had JC got reamed at times - was a recurring discussion point. Rodders >> Ardie in terms of lineouts right?
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
So you’re saying a quartet of Lomax, Frizell, Cane and J Barrett are remotely comparable to those legends ?
They're clearly better than those who replaced them.
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Has there been any news on when Frizzel is expected back playing ?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15 (had they been given more minutes at 15 up to now), you could have say Leicester at 11, Telea at 14 and then DMAC on the bench.
His non selection of Roigard is just foolhardy. This World Cup needs to be WON. It's not the Bledisloe where you can defend it by winning one of two games.
The team has been largely stink for the last 4 years. Roll the dice. Id love to see the likes of Roigard, DMAC, FInau, Stevenson in there but we are where we are now.
Samisoni had a hot hand last year and he seems to have taken the wind out of his sails too.
We need to inject some effervescence into the team. Its stale.
Lets at least fire some shots.
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We know injuries are a fact of rugby, so it’s no surprise.
We’re the ABs affected by injuries - yes. We’re the French ? Yes. But probably not to the same degree.
All of our 5 injuries in the squad were to first teamers. The late scratching of Cane lead us to play an inexperienced lock at 6.
Were the ABs squad selection mix affecting the ABs? Yes again. A stupid self inflicted error by us.
Unfortunately, we don’t seem to have the depth of quality in our squad - especially in the forwards. So if we take 4 starters out of the pack then it is going to hurt us more.
As mentioned, we can go deep in this tournament if we are able to field our top 23. That is probably unrealistic to think we can though.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2023:
We were the better side in the 1st half and really should have been 15 points up based on the opportunities we missed.
that would have given a different outcome to the 2nd half.
I agree that missing 5 key players had a major effect on the team, especially with the late scrubbing of Cane and moving Vaai to No. 6.
In time, Vaai may become a great lock for us, but at the moment he is a lightweight lock who plays 10kgs lighter than he actually is and it was a real wtf moment to see him with a No. 6 in his back.
It shows the folly of the RWC squad balance that in the very first game we have failed the first stress test of our squad by picking an inexperienced lock to play out of position at No. 6, while not using a loose forward that you picked for the squad
I thought the AB’s could win this World Cup but they need to have all of their best players on the park. That seems pretty unrealistic to not expect injuries so it looks like we are in course for a qtr final exit unless we can keep everyone healthy.
Still a long way to go in this tournament (games and time) and quite often teams who look good in the early stages, lose form or fall away in later rounds.
Bottom line is, we need to improve.
Selection of the squad, then of the match day team put us in a hole that we couldn't escape from. I don't have faith that Fozzie will pick the right team when it matters most. The Va'ai pick was madness when you lay it out like that. And now he sends for Blackadder, who is not the big 6 to fill the breach while Frizell is out. Spots are so precious when you are trying to win this tournament, and the signs are there that he's already realising he's screwed that up
I don't think they have "sent" for Blackadder per se.
I feel they always wanted him in the initial squad. He is held in high esteem by Ryan, and the by luck rather than design they now have the option to bring him in. If he was fit at the time of squad selection Jacobsen would probably be white baiting right now.
Id have Lord over Vaai purely on the eye test alone. We need a couple of lumps.
