NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship)
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Firstly the quality of the pitch was a disgrace and to play multiple games on it,seriously World Rugby
If you count the first round that would have been the 8th game on the same pitch in 5 x daysAll these sort of conditions did was play into the hands of the bigger packs
This pitch is a bad injury or 2 waiting to happen ,so much for player welfareOn the NZ performance ,
it should be said tactically it was’nt the smartest performance from the Baby Blacks ,they needed to kick long and force the French to play out of their own half ,they tried 3 or 4 high kicks which did’nt work which just gifted the big french pack more ball which allowed them to play to their strengthsPersonally i would have played Harry Godfrey at first five who has a longer kicking game and is a bit more physical when taking on the line
I was impressed with the scrum which was a real improvement on previous games
Credit to the French played to their strengths -
@sparky they are all going to basketball ,hard to develop size when you have’nt got it.
Even the Blues U20s that took the super title used 2 loose looseforwards because their 2 starting locks were injuredAlso this current forward pack is a similar size to the Baby Blacks team that won the title in 2017
And that side has produced the most ever super rugby players and several All Blacks -
How ironic is this? Was very recently that we were hearing that the big money imports were killing the domestic game in France. Now they appear to be at the leading edge. Why is that? All the money being pumped in? Whatever the case, it does appear concerning that we may be behind the times. It won't be the first time but it's not a great position to be in.
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@cgrant said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
There are a few huge props in NZ SR teams (Ma'u, Tosi) but they don't get much playing time, so their development is hampered. There aren't big beefy locks though. Tuipolutu and IWL are the biggest but they can't be compared to the likes of Meafou, Tuilagi or Willemsee. Whitelock and Retallick are exceptional men who are gonna be very hard to replace.
Fabian Holland is probably the next big beefy lock. Still 20 and his Highlanders stats list him at 2.04 and 124 kg. He's the same height as Pari Pari Parkinson but has 5 kg on his listed weight.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
How ironic is this? Was very recently that we were hearing that the big money imports were killing the domestic game in France. Now they appear to be at the leading edge. Why is that? All the money being pumped in? Whatever the case, it does appear concerning that we may be behind the times. It won't be the first time but it's not a great position to be in.
Because FRU put it hard rules about foreign-born numbers, and they also have 3 pro leagues, with more teams than the entire SH
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Think France have been building into this for some time. With all the intellectual property we have lost to the French clubs, plus shedloads of players both fringe ABs and ex-ABs, this
has been coming for a while and isn't surprising. Right on the eve of the senior WC too. We can bleat on as much as we like, but we just need to evolve and be better than them. Take the game to another level. -
Not just France and not just U20.
Other countries like Ireland and Argentina and to a lesser extent, Scotland & Italy, have clearly put some serious resources and thinking into developing their player base.
We've been way too complacent in NZ for nearly a decade believing we'd always have a superior pool of players while other countries have invested prudently and are seeing the benefits. At least there's some signs of NZR waking up with the AB XV approach, but I sense it will take a few years to see results.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
Not just France and not just U20.
Other countries like Ireland and Argentina and to a lesser extent, Scotland & Italy, have clearly put some serious resources and thinking into developing their player base.
We've been way too complacent in NZ for nearly a decade believing we'd always have a superior pool of players while other countries have invested prudently and are seeing the benefits. At least there's some signs of NZR waking up with the AB XV approach, but I sense it will take a few years to see results.
Georgia says hi
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@Machpants said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
How ironic is this? Was very recently that we were hearing that the big money imports were killing the domestic game in France. Now they appear to be at the leading edge. Why is that? All the money being pumped in? Whatever the case, it does appear concerning that we may be behind the times. It won't be the first time but it's not a great position to be in.
Because FRU put it hard rules about foreign-born numbers, and they also have 3 pro leagues, with more teams than the entire SH
They just bring them in earlier. I've heard stories about regular plane loads of young PI players heading to France. They aren't just from the French territories but Fiji and Samoa.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
How ironic is this? Was very recently that we were hearing that the big money imports were killing the domestic game in France. Now they appear to be at the leading edge. Why is that? All the money being pumped in? Whatever the case, it does appear concerning that we may be behind the times. It won't be the first time but it's not a great position to be in.
France have won the 6 nations once in 10 years.
Their u20s Have not won the 6 nations for a few years.I wouldn't get carried away by u20 results especially in a mud bath. It's nice to win but underage teams develop differently in different countries. France have a lot of teams which means their players will get opportunities. Their squad have over 250 top 14 games. About 5 times higher than the next highest.
Tuilagi has gotten a lot of press but he will need to lose plenty of those kgs if he wants to play for France senior team.
A law change limiting the number of subs would swing the balance towards lighter players again but that's another topic.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
Not just France and not just U20.
Other countries like Ireland and Argentina and to a lesser extent, Scotland & Italy, have clearly put some serious resources and thinking into developing their player base.
We've been way too complacent in NZ for nearly a decade believing we'd always have a superior pool of players while other countries have invested prudently and are seeing the benefits. At least there's some signs of NZR waking up with the AB XV approach, but I sense it will take a few years to see results.
Complacent like the 7s were, we were too slow to professionalise it, with permanent 7s players. Thankfully that was savable, due to the lesser scale of 7s (money, numbers, etc).
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@Machpants said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
Complacent like the 7s were, we were too slow to professionalise it, with permanent 7s players. Thankfully that was savable, due to the lesser scale of 7s (money, numbers, etc).
Look at France's U20 Teams have improved over the years and how that has translated into Les Blues.
If we don't have the players and winning teams at the U20 level, we sure as not, ain't going to have the players at AB level coming thru the pipeline unless we improve player development.
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All the Six Nations teams play way more games than the NZ and Aussie U20 teams, because they have that tournament.
They also played warm-up games prior to this tournament.Their whole preparation startsmuch sooner. Although officially there is only an U20 age grade tournament, there has been an U18 Six Nations tournament for years. The French call it le Festival des Six Nations. (same for their female players.) Our schoolboys didn't even play Australia, last year, only Fiji. This year, our U20s only played Australia twice. No proper Oceania U20 Championship. Not sure whether we can blame NZR; maybe Argentina and Fiji weren't available or interested.
France won the U18 Six Nations this year. Their U18 team will tour South Africa in the first three weeks of August.
I hope NZ continues with a NZ U19 tour as preparation.
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@Stargazer NZR could fix up their own back yard by firstly starting with an expanded SR U20 competition. As we've discussed, every team playing the other teams should be the minimum. I'm sure it comes down to the cost. Then get an international calendar up and running.
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@Bovidae Yep, it would pose the same problems as with Aupiki. The players aren't full time professionals, they would have to move to SR franchise bases and probably need take unpaid leave from their day jobs. If NZR isn't going to compensate them at least for lost income and additional (travel/accommodation) costs, it won't happen.
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@akan004 said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
@Nepia said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
@akan004 said in NZ U20 v France U20 (World Rugby U20 Championship):
I know we tend to opt for mobility over size in NZ, but I do think we have to start to look at bigger athletes as well. That's where the game is heading, especially in the NH. Would players such as Tuilagi, Skelton, Meafou etc have been persevered with in NZ? Probably not.
Tamaiti Williams has just been selected as an AB. So maybe yes.
He's an exception rather than the rule due to his skill and mobility. We don't generally see too many big men in NZ rugby.
Our forwards certainly haven't lacked size. While our backline has been the 2nd heaviest in the world behind France since the last World Cup.
It's also been amusing hearing people continue to perpetrate the myth of our 'undersized' forwards against the much vaunted NH packs - the coaching wasn't the problem - it's cause our players are simply too small & weak to overpower those MASSIVE northern hemisphere packs.
The ironic thing is NZ's forward pack has consistently been either the heaviest or 2nd heaviest pack in the world during Foster's 4 year tenure. He just had them playing lateral helter-skelter rugby instead of utilizing our big men effectively, thankfully Schmidt & Ryan have got them playing more a lot more direct and varying the point of attack now.
