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  • kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expat
    replied to Duluth on last edited by kiwi_expat
    #211

    @Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:

    The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job

    It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs

    It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?

    DuluthD KiwiwombleK Chris B.C 3 Replies Last reply
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  • DuluthD Offline
    DuluthD Offline
    Duluth
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by Duluth
    #212

    @kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:

    It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?

    Crusaders salary bill would be the largest (b/c they have the most ABs) and it's paid for by NZR. Compare their total salary to the Highlanders, that would be the largest discrepancy (most ABs to fewest)

    A top up to a coach, or a player, is fiddling at the edges of the real problems

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  • KiwiwombleK Online
    KiwiwombleK Online
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by
    #213

    @kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!

    in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree

    Crazy HorseC kiwi_expatK 2 Replies Last reply
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  • Crazy HorseC Offline
    Crazy HorseC Offline
    Crazy Horse
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by
    #214

    @Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:

    @kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!

    in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree

    Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.

    KiwiwombleK StargazerS 2 Replies Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Online
    KiwiwombleK Online
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to Crazy Horse on last edited by
    #215

    @Crazy-Horse dont know, possibly less so but it use to be and that helped build the current run of success

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  • StargazerS Offline
    StargazerS Offline
    Stargazer
    replied to Crazy Horse on last edited by
    #216

    @Crazy-Horse Blackadder, Havili, Jordan, Fainga'anuku, Reece, Springer, Hotham, Sykes-Martin, Q. MacDonald, Strange, Havili-Talitui, Chapman are all playing for Ta$man (if they're not with the ABs).

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  • kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expat
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by kiwi_expat
    #217

    @Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:

    @kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!

    in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree

    The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...

    The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.

    Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.

    Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.

    Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.

    He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.

    Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.

    KiwiwombleK S 2 Replies Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Online
    KiwiwombleK Online
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by
    #218

    @kiwi_expat Bower never played for the Highlanders though

    kiwi_expatK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expatK Offline
    kiwi_expat
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by kiwi_expat
    #219

    @Kiwiwomble depth at prop 2018/19, behind Lomax, Tokolahi, Johnstone, Lienert-Brown, etc.. he played for the development side I think. The point is Razor takes relatively unknown talent and is skillful enough to develop them further than they would've elsewhere.

    He maximizes his resources, he doesn't require already developed All Blacks to be successful (unlike Leon) he takes rough unrefined talent and gets them punching well above their weight at SR level.

    ChrisC 1 Reply Last reply
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  • ChrisC Offline
    ChrisC Offline
    Chris
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by
    #220

    @kiwi_expat

    Bower was picked up as a injury sub during the season at First then was retained the next year.
    Jason Ryan picked him out and schooled him up.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • G Online
    G Online
    george33
    wrote on last edited by
    #221

    I hope Bower goes back to Highlanders If he stays in NZ

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • S Away
    S Away
    SouthernMann
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by
    #222

    @kiwi_expat Lio-Willie was ignored by Otago for too long. Then when the Highlanders did notice him they didn't take his talent seriously. He should have immediately been given a decent contract. Instead, was a cover player. By the time he was on the paddock for us, he was starting, then got injured. At that point he probably made up his mind. Bower, Moorby and Hotham are the other ones where more of an effort should have been made.

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Online
    KiwiwombleK Online
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to SouthernMann on last edited by
    #223

    @SouthernMann how long has Leo-willie been in otago? did he actually come down as a first year so maybe 6 years ago? or was it more recently for rugby?

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  • S Away
    S Away
    SouthernMann
    wrote on last edited by
    #224

    Came down as a student is my understanding. I think he had a decent 2019 season. Had a stormer in 2020 albeit covid interrupted. Then made Otago 2021. Probably an issue with not coming down as an acadamey player

    F 1 Reply Last reply
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  • Chris B.C Online
    Chris B.C Online
    Chris B.
    replied to kiwi_expat on last edited by
    #225

    @kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:

    It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?

    Sorry mate, but your point about Leon and Ta$man is total bollocks - perpetuated on the Fern by a bunch of financial illiterates and a couple of fuckwits who think they are funny.

    On page 28 of this State of the Union report.... https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/nz/Documents/consumer-business/nz-en-2017-state-of-the-unions-report-final.pdf

    ..you will see in Leon's first year as Head Coach, Ta$man has the fourth lowest team and match-related costs - we finished runner up to Canterbury in the competition, with less than half of their budget. Ta$man occupy a similar position in each of the State of the Union reports except 2018, when we hosted the Argentina test match under a special arrangement with NZ Rugby and our match related expenditures and revenues each jumped by a large amount.

    What you actually saw at Ta$man was a masterclass of identification of young talent and team building, by Leon and Kieran Keane.

    KiwiMurphK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurph
    replied to Chris B. on last edited by
    #226

    @Chris-B It's a fair critique of Leon's time at the Blues though - Leon's strength at the Blues has been putting together strong teams on paper (both on the field and in regards to his coaching team). In terms of converting that talent to on field success it's been up and down. For a coach known for his attack the Blues attacking shape has been awfully disappointing this year.

    Chris B.C 1 Reply Last reply
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  • Chris B.C Online
    Chris B.C Online
    Chris B.
    replied to KiwiMurph on last edited by Chris B.
    #227

    @KiwiMurph That's a fair assessment at the Blues - he built a good team, but hasn't quite got them over the line (except in the Smash the Aussies version). And they've gone backwards this year. Compared to previous versions of the Blues he's been pretty good, but maybe leaving at the right time.

    Razor has picked him and clearly knows what he's getting, so I think that's a pretty solid endorsement.

    He also didn't go directly to the Blues - he finished with the Crusaders in 2017 and went to the Blues in 2019, and was only supposed to be an assistant to Tana.

    KiwiMurphK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurph
    replied to Chris B. on last edited by
    #228

    @Chris-B said in Super Rugby 2024:

    Razor has picked him as an assistant coach (alongside another assistant coach who is helping the attack in Holland) and clearly knows what he's getting, so I think that's a pretty solid endorsement as an assistant coach.

    Fixed.

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  • StargazerS Offline
    StargazerS Offline
    Stargazer
    wrote on last edited by Stargazer
    #229

    WingerW 1 Reply Last reply
    2
  • WingerW Offline
    WingerW Offline
    Winger
    replied to Stargazer on last edited by
    #230

    @Stargazer

    No ABs. And during the 6 nations v Munster

    StargazerS M 2 Replies Last reply
    1

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