NZ All Time XI
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@Higgins said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 Lance Gibbs and Jeff Dujon probably in the borderline - but, you've got most of them. Not sure Bishop quite makes the grade.
There's some older guys - Ramadhin and Valentine, Wes Hall, Rohan Kanhai, Seymour Nurse - but, none probably contenders for their Rushmore.
Sobers and Richards would be the first two carved - I'd have Holding and Marshall, but probably others wouldn't.
But then how do you leave out Lara, Ambrose ( whom I have seen and know to be legends ) or the three Ws ( Google them )
Impossible task.
How do you not even mention Joel Garner?
Thank you for reinforcing my point. NZ have two and it’s a scramble for four. The Windies have a battle to narrow it down to four.
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For that 4th spot on NZ's Mt Rushmore. Jack Cowie would have a claim as he was probably the best in the world in his position (seam/fast bowling) for a period of x years. A statsguru query backs it up, with only competition from Lindwall (an all time great) in the post-war years (the final third, or fag-end, of Cowie's 12 year career span).
Shane Bond, no matter how much I rate him, would never have been the best in the world even if injury or ICL free, as his peak coincided with McGrath.
But, probably, McCullum would have a very good claim as he rates highly (top 5 or better) on so many NZ metrics. Runs scored, wicket-keeping, captaincy etc. Even areas where he is considered a 'relative failure'; e.g. as an opening batsman - he is in NZ's top 4 or 5 for both runs scored or average etc.
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On a tangent, as a kid I played football in a team and one of the kids' grandads coached the team and I never liked him because he was soooo old and just let his grandson play wherever he wanted. Dad mentioned he played a few games for NZ, it was Jack Cowie...
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
He was a tall bugger, solid built even in his 80s. I could imagine him being a real terror in his prime
Jack Cowie
Known as “The Bull”, Cowie was New Zealand’s first great test bowler and ranked with the world’s best.
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@Rapido said in NZ All Time XI:
For that 4th spot on NZ's Mt Rushmore. Jack Cowie would have a claim as he was probably the best in the world in his position (seam/fast bowling) for a period of x years. A statsguru query backs it up, with only competition from Lindwall (an all time great) in the post-war years (the final third, or fag-end, of Cowie's 12 year career span).
Shane Bond, no matter how much I rate him, would never have been the best in the world even if injury or ICL free, as his peak **coincided with McGrath.
**
But, probably, McCullum would have a very good claim as he rates highly (top 5 or better) on so many NZ metrics. Runs scored, wicket-keeping, captaincy etc. Even areas where he is considered a 'relative failure'; e.g. as an opening batsman - he is in NZ's top 4 or 5 for both runs scored or average etc.Yes but assuming Crowe is the third name on there we need to agree that Border, Chappell, Richards etc were better than he was. Other like Gooch, Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Gower etc were around his level.
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@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 JFR was very good against spin, but I recall was regarded as a bit suspect vs pace.
He skipped a tour to the Windies (and Edgar was dropped) which gave Rudder his baptism of fire.
That's the glaring blotch on the copybook of JFR. Not even close to an NZ all time XI and someone suggests he's on the Mount Rushmore of NZ cricketers? Good grief.
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
He was a tall bugger, solid built even in his 80s. I could imagine him being a real terror in his prime
Too far away from Cricket to have any sensible view on who should be in the XI and just enjoying reading this thread, but yeah, we should def' consider older-era players like Cowie, Bert Sutciffe and JR Reid who were clearly way up with the very best of their era based on stats and contemporary opinion.
And just want to make a point that NZ cricket owes a huge debt to semi-pro players like Bevan Congdon & Bruce Taylor who made NZ competitive in the '70's and laid some seriously good foundations. You suspect they'd be outstanding in todays professional environment but sadly, I guess we'll never know how good they might have been.
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@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
Kane has moved into the top 10 for centuries per innings batted - at around 1 ton every 6 innings.
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
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@Cyclops said in NZ All Time XI:
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
If you remove his first 25 tests, he is averaging over 63 with 24 tons in 117 innings - better than 1 in 5 which is pretty spectacular.
For the last 5 years (since March 2018) he averages 61 with 10 tons in 50 innings - still 1 in 5. Possibly more failures in that period though but his average rescued by 4 double centuries. (in that same period, Root has played 64 tests to Kane's 30!)
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FB@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
@Cyclops said in NZ All Time XI:
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
If you remove his first 25 tests, he is averaging over 63 with 24 tons in 117 innings - better than 1 in 5 which is pretty spectacular.
For the last 5 years (since March 2018) he averages 61 with 10 tons in 50 innings - still 1 in 5. Possibly more failures in that period though but his average rescued by 4 double centuries. (in that same period, Root has played 64 tests to Kane's 30!)
I saw a thing on FB asking which of the big four would get the most test tons.
Unfortunately KW is always going to suffer a bit by not being from the big three nations. It’ll probably be Root and I’d argue he’s third or forth best of the lot.
All of them could easily each play for another five years at least as well. Loads of hundreds to come.
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A guy like Bond has to be in for me. With him playing we were a good chance of beating a really bloody good Aussie team who probably outmatched us in 10/11 spots. Without him we were no chance. There are no Reid type 'would he have been found out over time' suspicions or lucky wickets - he was playing the best and dominating them: people bowling 150kph inswingers and making players as good as Ricky Ponting look silly are not over-rated.
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@reprobate said in NZ All Time XI:
A guy like Bond has to be in for me. With him playing we were a good chance of beating a really bloody good Aussie team who probably outmatched us in 10/11 spots. Without him we were no chance. There are no Reid type 'would he have been found out over time' suspicions or lucky wickets - he was playing the best and dominating them: people bowling 150kph inswingers and making players as good as Ricky Ponting look silly are not over-rated.
Guys as good as Hayden, Gilly, Ponting and Martyn were made to look like chumps that day. I can’t believe we lost though !
It’s probably a good thing in one way that he essentially didn’t play when not 100% and risk losing the aura like lots of others have.
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@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
I heard he fell out with the selectors.
In saying that’s he’s well in the discussion for a spot as an opener in our all time team but if he played more he’d be a certainty.
First class records can be misleading. Lots of guys ( mainly English ) like Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Mike Gatting and Allan Lamb had formidable records in county cricket but were pretty bog standard test players. Apparently it’s not the best breeding ground in many cases.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
I heard he fell out with the selectors.
In saying that’s he’s well in the discussion for a spot as an opener in our all time team but if he played more he’d be a certainty.
First class records can be misleading. Lots of guys ( mainly English ) like Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Mike Gatting and Allan Lamb had formidable records in county cricket but were pretty bog standard test players. Apparently it’s not the best breeding ground in many cases.
I remember when he came back to the NZ team. His class was evident. I still remember him being the first player I'd seen stepping to leg to expose his stumps and cracking the ball over the off. Amazing
