Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
I have said it before, but maybe McLeod has been given a shit sandwhich of a defensive system to coach rather than him being the brains behind the system.
Ryan was given a shit show of a forward pack and, well, you know the rest
strange thing about that If Joseph gets the job there is a real chance Ryan is gone.
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McLeod gets talked up as someone that coaches defence well. I think that most of us have a problem with his defence theories. While the rest of the world looks to pressure through line speed he seems to advocate trying to defend slightly behind the gain line to increase turnover opportunities
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
McLeod gets talked up as someone that coaches defence well. I think that most of us have a problem with his defence theories. While the rest of the world looks to pressure through line speed he seems to advocate trying to defend slightly behind the gain line to increase turnover opportunities
Not defending him because I don't know, but are the theories his? I don't recall his work elsewhere.
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@Crazy-Horse tbf though, surely anyone involved with the ABs the last 6 or so years could see our defence has been and still is poor, particularly defending any kind of depth (our goal line d can be very good) so why has it not evolved?
If it is Fozzies call, why isn't McLeod stepping up saying this isn't working...if it is McLeods, then wtf is Fozzie doing allowing it to continue on this long?
That said, as above, maybe we simply have no clue...
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@Bones Highlanders had a passive drift defense under McLeod, unlike the Hurricanes suffocating rush defense under Plumtree in 2016 that didn't concede a single try, the irony is Foster took Plumtree who was a specialist defense coach and appointed him as his forwards coach - talk about setting your team up for imminent failure.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones the highlanders had passive drift defense under McLeod unlike the hurricanes exceptional rush d under plumtree in 2016 that didn't concede a single try, the irony is foster took plumtree who was a specialist defense coach and appointed him as his forwards coach - talk about setting your team up for failure.
Um, nope. They didn't in the finals, if that's what you mean
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I like that coaching option as well. Mainly because of Brown. The key to future AB success is unlocking defences and innovation. I don't see that from Holland or from Saders teams.
Hang on.. you're aware Brown has been coaching a team's attack in Super Rugby for the last 3 years right? should he not be judged on that?
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I like that coaching option as well. Mainly because of Brown. The key to future AB success is unlocking defences and innovation. I don't see that from Holland or from Saders teams.
Hang on.. you're aware Brown has been coaching a franchise's attack in Super Rugby for the last 3 years right? should he not be judged on that?
Yes, he should.
Apparently, Razor is not innovative either (sorry I mean the Saders) -
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@SBW1 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank What is the story of the coaching appointment, I thought Foster was locked in until the end of the season. It sounds like they may go with Razor for the World Cup or am I mistaken.
Fozz is locked in for the cup. The new guy takes over post RWC
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@chchfanatic said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Razor is not an assistant coach. He will tell you that. Jason Ryan is not a head coach.
I’m a biased Razor fan but I would accept it if JJ got the job. He’s a great coach who may be better than Razor.I think Jamie's association with Brown, it means he really is a package deal, but our best head coach independent of assistants? that's difficult to say - I would probably put Razor & McMillan (and during their peak: Cotter, Schmidt, Rennie) as equals in terms of head coaches still active. NZ has lots of excellent technical/assistant coaches going around such as Brown, Hansen, Ryan, Dermody (I still have him in this category), Tito, Evans, O'Halloran, Goodman, etc.. it's harder to pinpoint the genuine 'out & out' head coaches.
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@kiwi_expat Leon is a weird one in that he's been a head coach for quite a few seasons (Blues + Ta$man) but I think at test level would be better suited as an assistant. A bit like Holland I guess.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@chchfanatic said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Razor is not an assistant coach. He will tell you that. Jason Ryan is not a head coach.
I’m a biased Razor fan but I would accept it if JJ got the job. He’s a great coach who may be better than Razor.I think Jamie's association with Brown, it means he really is a package deal, but our best head coach independent of assistants? that's difficult to say - I would probably put Razor & McMillan (and during their peak: Cotter, Schmidt, Rennie) as equals in terms of head coaches still active. NZ has lots of excellent technical/assistant coaches going around such as Brown, Hansen, Ryan, Dermody (I still have him in this category), Tito, Evans, O'Halloran, Goodman, etc.. it's harder to pinpoint the genuine 'out & out' head coaches.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks that Joseph/Brown are just a package deal. Tony Brown turned down Razor's approach (and Foster's I think) last time because he said he had already made a commitment to JJ, and felt they had unfinished work in Japan. He also said he enjoyed working with JJ etc, but no where did I ever read or hear him say that Joseph was only person he would work with.
But get where you coming from Ex Pat.
I still wonder if a some of these so called techincal/assistant coaches maybe just pretty good head coaches when given job. -
@KiwiMurph said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat Leon is a weird one in that he's been a head coach for quite a few seasons (Blues + Ta$man) but I think at test level would be better suited as an assistant. A bit like Holland I guess.
Leon always made me wonder a bit, when he was an assistant to Razor at Crusaders, he left because he said he wanted to go back and live at home , in Marlborough, next minute he was off to Blues.
Same as Holland, who I read in interview in Rugby News said he left Crusaders to go to Canes , and one of reasons his and Razore coaching philophies were different. Then we hear he was on Razor's ticket for ABs. -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I like that coaching option as well. Mainly because of Brown. The key to future AB success is unlocking defences and innovation. I don't see that from Holland or from Saders teams.
Hang on.. you're aware Brown has been coaching a team's attack in Super Rugby for the last 3 years right? should he not be judged on that?
And we do see "signature" Tony Brown moves and ideas. Having the right (or consistent) personnel to make them effective is a different matter.
In the test arena we have seen Japan run plays that have made higher ranked sides look silly.
Point is that it's no use complaining that the ABs are no longer ahead of other teams in their approach to the game then not actively use coaches that bring progressive ideas.
Before anyone claims that I am saying that Razor is not progressive, I am talking about 'how much'. I could make an argument that Foster was innovative if I wanted but randomly trying things isn't really what I was looking at.
It's not as simple as set piece moves either. It is mindset. For me, while other coaches concentrate on doing 'normal' things better, Brown looks to add an element of doing something different.
I'm also not advocating doing different at the expense of the basics which is why TB is an assistant. -
even if Brown and JJ are a package....is that a bad thing? does that not just show two self aware coaches who have been around the block and know who they work well with. expecting everyone to work with everyone is how we end up with the current coaching group
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat Leon is a weird one in that he's been a head coach for quite a few seasons (Blues + Ta$man) but I think at test level would be better suited as an assistant. A bit like Holland I guess.
Completely agree. I think in the right environment, in a Razor led group Holland would be fine - Holland is better when he's not having to deal with the day-to-day responsibilities of being a head coach, he's more effective when left to concentrate solely on the 'on the grass' coaching & that's why I reckon the Hurricanes attack looked more effective between 2016-2019 as Holland was able to concentrate on running the attack & shaping the game-day strategy, while Boyd dealt with the organizational side of things, like media duties, big picture planning and man-management. Holland is a good technical coach, but not a manager so to speak.
It's all about having coaches who's skillsets are complimentary of each other. Joseph & Brown together are perfect in this regard. Jamie is the hard-nosed man manager who sets the tone/culture, while Tony is the more understated analytical mind who works in the background, I suppose like Steve Hansen and Wayne Smith.
