Thoughts on Cane now?

Chris

@Kiwiwomble said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Oh I am still an Akira fan but he is clearly now bench at best (and I'd like to see MMT or Gardiner or Grace given a bit of a go).

i love MMT but we're far to close to be mixing things up yet again unless we really need to arent we?

I don't think have a settled 6 still.

Scooter is a better lock than 6.
They're not using Akira correctly, well at least not how we think they should (he's now doing stuff everyone claimed he didn't do yet getting very little credit for it).
Blackadder is all hustle and bustle but it's not always effective (still good player before the Crusaders swords come out).
Frizell is a bit Blackadder like yet if he does one good run or tackle he gets extra credit for some odd reason.

I think in Fosters mind we do have a settled 6,Barrett with Frizell as back up looks like we’re he is heading.

Chris

@bayimports said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Back on Cane, if he played like Dalton against England I would have no qualms. But he typically doesn't.
DP was a defensive ruck demon. I'd bet my dog-eared soul he could clean out the lowest levels of hell. He complumented Ardie so well the English were backfooted, backswatted and deep-fried battered.

I didn't think DP was so clearly a 7 before and he isn't, he is an all-round great hybrid loosie and was integral to that loosie trio.

IMO Dalton is the best 7 but I can’t see Foster replacing his preferred Captain a year out from the WC.
Cane will probably start with DP on the bench.

I think from what we have seen from Foster that this is likely, but this also is assuming Foster also carries a 7 on the bench. We didn't against England

Yep if Barrett plays 6 I agree possibility there will be no 7 on the bench.

nostrildamus

@Kiwiwomble we will need a spare 6/8 off bench as they will manage the two older locks via SB..

nostrildamus

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@bayimports said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Back on Cane, if he played like Dalton against England I would have no qualms. But he typically doesn't.
DP was a defensive ruck demon. I'd bet my dog-eared soul he could clean out the lowest levels of hell. He complumented Ardie so well the English were backfooted, backswatted and deep-fried battered.

I didn't think DP was so clearly a 7 before and he isn't, he is an all-round great hybrid loosie and was integral to that loosie trio.

IMO Dalton is the best 7 but I can’t see Foster replacing his preferred Captain a year out from the WC.
Cane will probably start with DP on the bench.

I think from what we have seen from Foster that this is likely, but this also is assuming Foster also carries a 7 on the bench. We didn't against England

Yep if Barrett plays 6 I agree possibility there will be no 7 on the bench.

I assume Savea moves if Dalton injured and they will have a 6/8 on bench.

Kiwiwomble

@nostrildamus surely if they didn;t think that couple be done between frizell and AI or even sotutu they would have done more before now

to be clear...if it were me SB would concentrate on lock and we'd have had some 100% locked in as 6 before now...i just dont think baring injury we can expect someone out of the blue

Windows97

Cane all honestly needs to spend some time getting his body and probably his mind right for 2023.

One thing he does have over Papps is that Cane has a history of performing for the AB's year-in, year out. DP has had a very good year and deserved the spot on form but is still quite new and AB rugby has a history of players finally cracking the starting 15 to only then fall into obscurity.

So Super rugby 2023 will be a big season for both of them, Cane to prove he's back in form and DP to prove he's still the best 7 in the country.

Personally I'd prefer Cane, the AB's biggest weakness in recently has been well for one startling inconsistency and a lack of composure once the pressure comes on. In the "good old days" we'd grind out ugly wins while this season especially we'd fall to pieces.

Cane at least has some leadership ability to maybe recapture that ability to maintain composure in the camp and grind out ugly wins (though you could argue he didn't offer much this year and that's a fair cop).

However I can't see anyone else with leadership ability in the camp that's any better and no-one else is really sticking their hand up to fix this problem.

Anyway I don't think Cane is done just yet, I hope he comes back and has a barnstorming 2023 and proves to everyone he is the best pick for 7 and the AB captaincy as I think that scenario would offer more the the AB's as a whole than ditching your captain in RWC year as he's hopelessly out of form.

And in no way is any of the above a detraction as to DP's ability - his time will come at the earliest 2023 and at the latest 2024

Chris

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@bayimports said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Back on Cane, if he played like Dalton against England I would have no qualms. But he typically doesn't.
DP was a defensive ruck demon. I'd bet my dog-eared soul he could clean out the lowest levels of hell. He complumented Ardie so well the English were backfooted, backswatted and deep-fried battered.

I didn't think DP was so clearly a 7 before and he isn't, he is an all-round great hybrid loosie and was integral to that loosie trio.

IMO Dalton is the best 7 but I can’t see Foster replacing his preferred Captain a year out from the WC.
Cane will probably start with DP on the bench.

I think from what we have seen from Foster that this is likely, but this also is assuming Foster also carries a 7 on the bench. We didn't against England

Yep if Barrett plays 6 I agree possibility there will be no 7 on the bench.

I assume Savea moves if Dalton injured and they will have a 6/8 on bench.

That seems to be the thinking unless they see Dalton being able to cover 7/6 or Blackadder able to cover 6/7

taniwharugby

@Kiwiwomble I think thats part of the problem, under that top 16/17 players has been a bit very little development of players...they were lucky Cody came back into form, so have him and ST, but behind him, do we really want to be relying on an aging inconsistent Coles?

We have 3 world class locks, but preference seems to be playing 1 at 6, meaning none of the 6 options behind him are preferred to start big games, but behind these 3 locks, we dont really trust Vaai, PT and Lord has been out injured.

DP only got the time he did on the EOYT due to Cane being injured, Hoskins has struggled for minutes behind Savea.

Then there is Smith, with all due respect, we recalled TJP FFS.

If any of those top 16/17ish players get long term injuries next year, we gonna have some players with low mileage on thier clocks running out...granted, some players will rise up and meet the challenge, but seems to me things arent as easy to do that at present, for whatever reason.

Kiwiwomble

@taniwharugby i 100% agree, i was just expressing what i think fozzie will do rather than what i would do or already have done

No Quarter

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nzzp said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.

Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.

A bit like Akira then.

only if you ignore MOTM performances, right.

He hasn't kicked on, but he has played some storming games in black.

I honestly don't remember any 80 min MOM performances in black.
And I am not being a smart arse.

@Chris @Stargazer here you go guys, I know this will be tough reading for you both, but will hopefully job your memory a bit.

Plenty of votes here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4772/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-i

MOTM here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4792/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-ii?page=1

Backed up with another MOTM performance:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4824/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-iii

Three in a row where he was MOTM or in the mix.

Can also add a game against Fiji where he got plenty of votes just for good measure:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4738/all-blacks-motm-v-fiji-2?page=1

And why not throw Tonga in there as well, got quite a few votes in that match as well:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4707/all-blacks-motm-v-tonga?page=1

This is from 1 year ago. Guess you guys have pretty short memories?

No Quarter

Can you imagine if Frizzel produced a strong of performances like that

Chris

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nzzp said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.

Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.

A bit like Akira then.

only if you ignore MOTM performances, right.

He hasn't kicked on, but he has played some storming games in black.

I honestly don't remember any 80 min MOM performances in black.
And I am not being a smart arse.

@Chris @Stargazer here you go guys, I know this will be tough reading for you both, but will hopefully job your memory a bit.

Plenty of votes here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4772/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-i

MOTM here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4792/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-ii?page=1

Backed up with another MOTM performance:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4824/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-iii

Three in a row where he was MOTM or in the mix.

Can also add a game against Fiji where he got plenty of votes just for good measure:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4738/all-blacks-motm-v-fiji-2?page=1

And why not throw Tonga in there as well, got quite a few votes in that match as well:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4707/all-blacks-motm-v-tonga?page=1

This is from 1 year ago. Guess you guys have pretty short memories?

Did you double and triple vote a few times.

No Quarter

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nzzp said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.

Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.

A bit like Akira then.

only if you ignore MOTM performances, right.

He hasn't kicked on, but he has played some storming games in black.

I honestly don't remember any 80 min MOM performances in black.
And I am not being a smart arse.

@Chris @Stargazer here you go guys, I know this will be tough reading for you both, but will hopefully job your memory a bit.

Plenty of votes here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4772/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-i

MOTM here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4792/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-ii?page=1

Backed up with another MOTM performance:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4824/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-iii

Three in a row where he was MOTM or in the mix.

Can also add a game against Fiji where he got plenty of votes just for good measure:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4738/all-blacks-motm-v-fiji-2?page=1

And why not throw Tonga in there as well, got quite a few votes in that match as well:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4707/all-blacks-motm-v-tonga?page=1

This is from 1 year ago. Guess you guys have pretty short memories?

Did you double and triple vote a few times.

I really rate your contributions on here mate, you know your shit and are involved in the game from grass roots up. I'm just staggered as to how you (and many others in fairness) seem to have such a blind spot for Akira's performances in black. He's been by far our best and most consistent 6 in the past few years. I think it's a real failure of the AB coaches to not utilise his strengths more and get him playing like he did in those games more consistently. I was hoping Ryan would help with that, but he seems to have just pushed him aside which is frustrating to see.

Chris

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nzzp said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.

Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.

A bit like Akira then.

only if you ignore MOTM performances, right.

He hasn't kicked on, but he has played some storming games in black.

I honestly don't remember any 80 min MOM performances in black.
And I am not being a smart arse.

@Chris @Stargazer here you go guys, I know this will be tough reading for you both, but will hopefully job your memory a bit.

Plenty of votes here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4772/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-i

MOTM here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4792/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-ii?page=1

Backed up with another MOTM performance:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4824/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-iii

Three in a row where he was MOTM or in the mix.

Can also add a game against Fiji where he got plenty of votes just for good measure:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4738/all-blacks-motm-v-fiji-2?page=1

And why not throw Tonga in there as well, got quite a few votes in that match as well:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4707/all-blacks-motm-v-tonga?page=1

This is from 1 year ago. Guess you guys have pretty short memories?

Did you double and triple vote a few times.

I really rate your contributions on here mate, you know your shit and are involved in the game from grass roots up. I'm just staggered as to how you (and many others in fairness) seem to have such a blind spot for Akira's performances in black. He's been by far our best and most consistent 6 in the past few years. I think it's a real failure of the AB coaches to not utilise his strengths more and get him playing like he did in those games more consistently. I was hoping Ryan would help with that, but he seems to have just pushed him aside which is frustrating to see.

I appreciate that mate,but sorry I just see Akira going missing a lot and I wish he would run harder on to the ball instead of those stop start runs.
He frustrates me as he has potential to be an amazing athlete.

Bovidae

@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Yep if Barrett plays 6 I agree possibility there will be no 7 on the bench.

I assume Savea moves if Dalton injured and they will have a 6/8 on bench.

If SB remains at 6 then there needs to be specialist 7 on the bench. If the other player covers 6/8 then you have all three loose forward positions covered. It is hard to know without any scrums but watching the English test again it looks like Sotutu took over the openside role, as he was the player attending breakdowns. Savea remained wider.

Stargazer

@No-Quarter I attach no more value to Fern MOTM polls than to player ratings in the media. There's little objectivity in them.

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

I appreciate that mate,but sorry I just see Akira going missing a lot and I wish he would run harder on to the ball instead of those stop start runs.
He frustrates me as he has potential to be an amazing athlete.

Agreed.

MajorRage

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@No-Quarter said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@nzzp said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.

Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.

A bit like Akira then.

only if you ignore MOTM performances, right.

He hasn't kicked on, but he has played some storming games in black.

I honestly don't remember any 80 min MOM performances in black.
And I am not being a smart arse.

@Chris @Stargazer here you go guys, I know this will be tough reading for you both, but will hopefully job your memory a bit.

Plenty of votes here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4772/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-i

MOTM here:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4792/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-ii?page=1

Backed up with another MOTM performance:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4824/all-blacks-motm-vs-aus-iii

Three in a row where he was MOTM or in the mix.

Can also add a game against Fiji where he got plenty of votes just for good measure:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4738/all-blacks-motm-v-fiji-2?page=1

And why not throw Tonga in there as well, got quite a few votes in that match as well:

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4707/all-blacks-motm-v-tonga?page=1

This is from 1 year ago. Guess you guys have pretty short memories?

Did you double and triple vote a few times.

I really rate your contributions on here mate, you know your shit and are involved in the game from grass roots up. I'm just staggered as to how you (and many others in fairness) seem to have such a blind spot for Akira's performances in black. He's been by far our best and most consistent 6 in the past few years. I think it's a real failure of the AB coaches to not utilise his strengths more and get him playing like he did in those games more consistently. I was hoping Ryan would help with that, but he seems to have just pushed him aside which is frustrating to see.

Blind spot?

He hasn’t been by far our best and most consistent 6. To say that is a blind spot. I think he has the highest ceiling, is the best athlete and has probably played the best games (Frizell Bok 2 this year argues).

But he simply hasn’t reached those heights in the tight ones, vs the harder, stronger opposition.

You can talk about unseen work etc, but Savea manages to shine every game. As did Papalii on the EOYT.

He plays in a position which can shine every match. But simply doesn’t. Which is a shame. As I’d say it’s close to unanimous on TSF that we want him to be one of first names on the sheet. Which is for sure, his potential.

No Quarter

@MajorRage those MOTM polls I posted above are from 6 consecutive games where he was either MOTM or in the mix. After that he wasn't as prominent, not bad, just didn't stand out as much and he immediately just cops it for not being the best player on the pitch. Meanwhile a player like Frizzel puts together I don't know how many performances in a row where he doesn't really feature, but continues to get selected, and people start saying he's a better option. This year Akira was dropped for Frizzel despite being one of our better players after coming back from injury at a time when most of the ABs were under performing, and has barely had a chance since to get any form/confidence. If we all accept Akira has the highest ceiling, then why the hell isn't he getting consistent gametime to reach his potential given how often he's been a stand out for us in recent time? No other 6 in the country has come close. As I said, it's a failure of the coaches to utilise the strengths of one of our most talented players. Very frustrating to watch.

junior

@mariner4life said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

Cane, DP and Savea is a really terrible loose forward trio at the lineout.

I'm not sure it matters - we had 3 locks in our pack on Saturday, plus another couple of jumping options, and we failed to steal one throw off England.

No Quarter

@Stargazer said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

@No-Quarter I attach no more value to Fern MOTM polls than to player ratings in the media. There's little objectivity in them.

@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:

I appreciate that mate,but sorry I just see Akira going missing a lot and I wish he would run harder on to the ball instead of those stop start runs.
He frustrates me as he has potential to be an amazing athlete.

Agreed.

I disagree completely on the MOTM polls, they are far more objective than one idiot journalist rating players from a game. Yeah there's bias, but most posters will choose the stand outs as evidenced by one-eyed Chris throwing Akira votes. I actually think those polls are the best gauge of who the real MOTM was for the ABs anywhere on the internet.

The Silver Fern

Thoughts on Cane now?