Foster, Robertson etc
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@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 23, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
nice change of direction keep working on it
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
F*** me, I don't mind Razor, (or any coach) but bugger me the forward pack from then was bloody good though.
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs. -
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
as to call it an inherited a squad with 10 current AB's that year but in comparison the Canes had 9 AB's the Chiefs had 9 and the Blues had 9 Highlanders had 8..
Not to mention, Blues & Chiefs have seen just as (in recent seasons more) many All Blacks in their XVs.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
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@Crazy-Horse but is there not a difference, potentially even, between what your talking about which i take it is memory of past events....and confidence based on facts (results) and being able to replicate those results
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Leon Fukofuka, Tim Bateman, Sione Fifita, Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
The Crusaders under Razor have seen lots of these types of players, honest toilers, albeit limited athletically - invariably lack impact at test level, can't say that for McDonald's star studded & x-factor laden Blues sides who continually get picked apart by Razor's astute tactics, I also recall Crusaders pack struggling against the Chiefs All Black laden pack in their 20-7 Semi-Final win.
Razor makes his teams 'greater than the sum of their parts', it was the same with Sumner, he inherited a Sumner outfit that was rock bottom of the Chch 2nd Division. Within one year he had transformed them from cellar-dwellers to Division champs. And the following seasons he coached them all the way to the top of Div 1.
Yes, Blackadder's 63% record was bad as ploughboy suggests, but even Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 6 titles in 6 seasons when comparing to Deans & Blackadder's ridiculously stacked squads and experienced greats like Carter, McCaw etc.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Leon Fukofuka, Tim Bateman, Sione Fifita, Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
The Crusaders under Razor have seen lots of these types of players, honest toilers, albeit limited athletically - invariably lack impact at test level, can't say that for McDonald's star studded & x-factor laden Blues sides who continually get picked apart by Razor's astute tactics, I also recall Crusaders pack struggling against the Chiefs All Black laden pack in their 20-7 Semi-Final win.
Razor makes his teams 'greater than the sum of their parts', it was the same with Sumner, he inherited a Sumner outfit that was rock bottom of the Chch 2nd Division. Within one year he had transformed them from cellar-dwellers to Division champs. And the following seasons he coached them all the way to the top of Div 1.
Yes, Blackadder's 63% record was bad as ploughboy suggests, but even Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 6 titles in 6 seasons when comparing to Deans & Blackadder's ridiculously stacked squads and experienced greats like Carter, McCaw etc.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
The way people in hiring positions seem to think these days.
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This post is deleted!
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse but is there not a difference, potentially even, between what your talking about which i take it is memory of past events....and confidence based on facts (results) and being able to replicate those results
People have different way of expressing things, acting, carrying themselves. Just because one person could rate themselves, talk themselves up, give off the impression of confidence doesn't mean that person is any more capable than someone else that acknowledges their own weaknesses or self doubts.
Look at Foster for example. He came across as being very confident in the direction the ABs were taking. I think he may have even been called deluded on here at some point.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
The way people in hiring positions seem to think these days.
I know they do. And I think it can lead to problems. We all do it though. We trust the confident person.
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@Crazy-Horse yeah, but when that confidence is backed up by and possibly actually based on facts, in razors case results....then surely thats different than the opposite...see foster
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
F*** me, I don't mind Razor, (or any coach) but bugger me the forward pack from then was bloody good though.
I fucking love this thread sometimes. Poor Razor only had 4 of the front 5 from the top AB team in his young pup Crusaders (Moody, Taylor, Franks, Whitelock); these guys were hardly backed up by other All Blacks such as Crockett, Scott Barrett, Romano, Todd, Crotty, Dagg, and Goodhue. Oh fuck, there was another guy in there too named Reid or Reed or something like that as well. He might have been playing for the ABs, might have even been the captain for a while.
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse yeah, but when that confidence is backed up by and possibly actually based on facts, in razors case results....then surely thats different than the opposite...see foster
Agree. I was more talking about the scenario where Smith may have not been given the AB job again simply because he expressed some doubts.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?Agree with most of this.
The evidence is in on three years of Fozzie's four year tenure.
It's been a pretty mediocre period, full of up and down performances - and littered with losses (and draws) from "underperformances".
If I'm the board and Robinson, I'd be making these points at Fozzie's performance review. Could have done better. Now, Ian, we're backing you to the hilt for RWC 2023. Tell us what you want and need to get the job done and we'll do our best to give you what we can.
BUT, this is your shot. After that, it's a change of direction and like Eddie, here's your chance to announce you're stepping down after RWC with our thanks for your efforts.
And write Razor a contract and lock him in.
