All Blacks v Wales Test #3

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="590283" data-time="1466506546">
<div>
NMS, Dagg, Savea, Naholo & maybe Dmac are all genuine test quality in terms of what the AB's want from back 3.
 
In contrast only SBW is out & out AB quality in the centres. Crotty is solid but will never be a 9/10 player. Ngatai might be, but at the moment he's just a guy that looks good in a Super team. And the others are smashers not thinkers - Fekitoa & Tamanivalu - and Fekitoa looks increasingly bad. So there's "in theory" depth in the centres, but its the same way we had depth in 1998 with Gibson, Mayerfhofler, Clarke & Berryman. And we have a bad track record playing 2 big physical centres.
 
I don't really want Ben Smith anywhere bar 15, but I can see we can play a AB quality back 3 without Smith, I look in the centres & I'm sort of betting the house on Ngatai converting his Super class to AB level & partnering SBW. - ie a guy who barely ever sticks around & a guy who hasn't actually done dick. So I think the selectors will revisit Smith in 13 - even just 30 minutes, at some stage. Hopefully just in backup to the new Smith & Nonu that Ngatai & SBW will be right thru to the next WC...
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Naholo has this forum split 50/50, Savea is not looking himself, Dmac has never played for the ABs, so that leaves an injured guy, Dagg & Smith.
 
None of Fekitoa, Crotty or Tamanivalu has set the world on fire so far, but they haven't disgraced the jumper either - all of had a hand in setting up some tries, and most of the leaky defence has been out wide, not through the middle. Moala has been playing well, and has AB experience, so combine that with the untested Ngatai and the seaseoned Sonny Bill ... I cannot see any reason to look to move one of the worlds best outside backs into the centres.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="590323" data-time="1466539811">
We agree on Ngatai, on SBW I don't think I can think of any other test 12 that I would rather have.</blockquote>
 
I haven't seen a 10 I prefer over Barrett other than Cruden. I'm not sold on him either.

DMX

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="590369" data-time="1466554076">I haven't seen a 10 I prefer over Barrett other than Cruden. I'm not sold on him either.</blockquote>
 
Sounds like an impossible to please AB fan. You can only compare players to who they play or will play, if you prefer them to everyone else in the world I think that is a pretty good start.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="590377" data-time="1466554668">
Sounds like an impossible to please AB fan. You can only compare players to who they play or will play, if you prefer them to everyone else in the world I think that is a pretty good start.</blockquote>
 
You are comparing what you think someone is capable of vs what you know people are capable of. Let's just wait and see. Otherwise Toeava is still better than Tim Horan.

taniwharugby

Apparently Moala has been training at 13, Squire also looking a possibility at bench spot...if you take media speculation of who is running about where in the training sessions.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="590396" data-time="1466557468">
<div>
Apparently Moala has been training at 13, Squire also looking a possibility at bench spot...if you take media speculation of who is running about where in the training sessions.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
As like for like he looks the best bet to replicate what Nonu did so well for so long.
 
He actually has more AB experience than Ngatai so I find it interesting that the drums are beating louder for the latter. I guess it's the whole "can't have him at 12 if Fekitoa is at 13" scenario.

KiwiMurph

Moala has looked better at 13 for the Blues this season than he has at 12.
 
However having said that, I think a big part of that is the Blues 13s of Ranger/Sau, who don't really mesh with Moala. The Francis-Moala combo has worked much better.

Provincial Stalwart

Moala is marginally more experienced as an AB though Ngatai is the one with (minimal) minutes in the midfield. Moala and Ngatai's sole test appearance was in the game in Apia last year - Moala started on the left wing and Ngatai made a second half cameo in the midfield (replacing? Crotty, or SBW (or neither). 
 
Let's just say that both guys are inexperienced. Moala has more "in camp" experience, there you go. And Ngatai is not getting much experience this month because of his mushy swede.
 
I'm not salivating at the prospect of Moala being on the bench on Saturday but he seem the only choice if Fekitoa is out and Tamanivalu promoted to start.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Provincial Stalwart" data-cid="590429" data-time="1466561990">
<div>
Moala is marginally more experienced as an AB though Ngatai is the one with (minimal) minutes in the midfield. Moala and Ngatai's sole test appearance was in the game in Apia last year - Moala started on the left wing and Ngatai made a second half cameo in the midfield (replacing? Crotty, or SBW (or neither). 
 
Let's just say that both guys are inexperienced. Moala has more "in camp" experience, there you go. And Ngatai is not getting much experience this month because of his mushy swede.
 
I'm not salivating at the prospect of Moala being on the bench on Saturday but he seem the only choice if Fekitoa is out and Tamanivalu promoted to start. 

</div>
</blockquote>
Not denying that, I guess Ngatai is just the more popular guy on the fern in particular but then again there are lots of Chiefs fans here.

NTA

ABs by 20

KiwiMurph

Moala actually played right wing in his test debut v Samoa - was matched up with marking Tuilagi and did a fine job, including a nicely taken try. He made the odd error but he had a much better game than say Julian Savea had in test match 1.
 
While Ngatai has had limited AB experience, he does have more big-game experience than Moala, having played in Super Rugby playoffs/finals and is the captain of the NZ Maori.
 
Ngatai looks a lot more polished than Moala as a midfielder, his passing skills, vision, kicking game etc are all superior, so I think it is fair enough he is rated higher.
 
Having said that Moala's one test performance was good and he has been coming into form for the Blues as the season has progressed so I'd have no issues with him having to play on Saturday if required, and in fact would like to see him get a run, it's a good chance to see what he has got.

Frank

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="590366" data-time="1466553908">
<div>
Naholo has this forum split 50/50, Savea is not looking himself, Dmac has never played for the ABs, so that leaves an injured guy, Dagg & Smith.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Not quite 50-50
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/42079-naholo-yay-or-nay/'>http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/42079-naholo-yay-or-nay/</a>

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiMurph" data-cid="590439" data-time="1466562964">
<div>
Moala actually played right wing in his test debut v Samoa - was matched up with marking Tuilagi and did a fine job, including a nicely taken try. He made the odd error but he had a much better game than say Julian Savea had in test match 1.
 
While Ngatai has had limited AB experience, he does have more big-game experience than Moala, having played in Super Rugby playoffs/finals and is the captain of the NZ Maori.
 
Ngatai looks a lot more polished than Moala as a midfielder, his passing skills, vision, kicking game etc are all superior, so I think it is fair enough he is rated higher.
 
Having said that Moala's one test performance was good and he has been coming into form for the Blues as the season has progressed so I'd have no issues with him having to play on Saturday if required, and in fact would like to see him get a run, it's a good chance to see what he has got. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah I guess his issue was that in playing there he had to compete with NMS and Naholo who did even better ( mind you that may have been an easier nut to crack than Nonu/Smith/SBW ).
 
Either way a spot on the bench for someone that versatile wouldn't go amiss.

Provincial Stalwart

Yep, I think I recall Moala's try being on the right side so seems like he was on the right wing - my mistake for saying he was on the left (I assumed he was the "power" winger that day put it must have been Chuck Piutau. Moala did play well on debut - I'm not denying that - but he sure as shit isn't yet an international midfielder based on his iffy Super Rugby form and zero test match experience.
 
However, we know that iffy form (even for a newbie) is subservient to the selectors' eye for talent and coachability. These are nebulous terms but our panel seems to have a serious knack for it. 
 
Without the benefit of hindsight, are we actually any further ahead in the midfield today than we were in 2008? Conrad and Nonu were inexperienced as test players despite their Canes / Wellington partnership (Nonu played a fair bit at wing at domestic level in his earlier years too, with Tana around). I think Conrad only had 12 tests prior to 2008 while Nonu was then a fraction of what he became. The time it took to develop that partnership at test level was surely one of the factors in our average 2008 and dismal 2009.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Frank" data-cid="590455" data-time="1466565099">
<div>
Not quite 50-50
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/42079-naholo-yay-or-nay/'>http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/42079-naholo-yay-or-nay/</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
It was a bad question. There could be plenty of people who are fans of Naholo but who don't reckon he is up to All Black standard right now.

mariner4life

plus, he asked me while i was at work. Dick move, i felt pressure.

Billy Tell

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="590470" data-time="1466568350">
<div>
It was a bad question. There could be plenty of people who are fans of Naholo but who don't reckon he is up to All Black standard right now.
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, I think a degree in political science and 200 hours of practical experience is needed before posting a poll on the forum. The Q must be phrased just right to avoid bias.
 
There is so little to discuss this week, except everyone getting their knickers in a twist because we haven't yet settled on the new Nonu/Smith combo after only 2 tests.
 
Hopefully the team selection will see some talking points. Seriously, I really hope so.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="590482" data-time="1466570383">
<div>
Yes, I think a degree in political science and 200 hours of practical experience is needed before posting a poll on the forum. The Q must be phrased just right to avoid bias.
 
There is so little to discuss this week, except everyone getting their knickers in a twist because we haven't yet settled on the new Nonu/Smith combo after only 2 tests.
 
Hopefully the team selection will see some talking points. Seriously, I really hope so.
</div>
</blockquote>
Anyone can phrase a poll how they want. It's just that how the poll is phrased affects what conclusions you can draw from it.

African Monkey

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiMurph" data-cid="590398" data-time="1466558204">
<div>
Moala has looked better at 13 for the Blues this season than he has at 12.
 
However having said that, I think a big part of that is the Blues 13s of Ranger/Sau, who don't really mesh with Moala. The Francis-Moala combo has worked much better. 
</div>
</blockquote>
He sure has. Ranger getting injured has been a blessing in disguise for Moala. I hope he gets a go somewhere on Saturday.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Provincial Stalwart" data-cid="590468" data-time="1466568000">
<div>
Yep, I think I recall Moala's try being on the right side so seems like he was on the right wing - my mistake for saying he was on the left (I assumed he was the "power" winger that day put it must have been Chuck Piutau. Moala did play well on debut - I'm not denying that - but he sure as shit isn't yet an international midfielder based on his iffy Super Rugby form and zero test match experience.
 
However, we know that iffy form (even for a newbie) is subservient to the selectors' eye for talent and coachability. These are nebulous terms but our panel seems to have a serious knack for it. 
 
Without the benefit of hindsight, are we actually any further ahead in the midfield today than we were in 2008? Conrad and Nonu were inexperienced as test players despite their Canes / Wellington partnership (Nonu played a fair bit at wing at domestic level in his earlier years too, with Tana around). I think Conrad only had 12 tests prior to 2008 while Nonu was then a fraction of what he became. The time it took to develop that partnership at test level was surely one of the factors in our average 2008 and dismal 2009.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I think Nonu evolved as a player whereas Jamie Roberts never has ( and probably never will ) with the additional skills to go with the brute force he picked up. I was genuinely shocked when Roberts got run down ( not that bit, Barrett is fucken lightning ) and had the presence of mind to actually offload. Obviously a smart bloke in real life, it doesn't carryover to his rugby ability it seems......

The Silver Fern

All Blacks v Wales Test #3