Worst AB Captain
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@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@No-Quarter said in Worst AB Captain:
@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I would do that immediately.
I would also bring in Dalton this week to play no 7 and see if that improves our back row balance.
I don't advocate dropping Cane entirely - just give him a week off and reassess.
Agree completely. Ardie or Whitelock are the only real options we have, and Whitelock is getting on in years so I'd give it to Ardie who probably has another 5+ years left in him at at the top level. Let him grow in the role.
The other obvious option is to move Ardie to 7 and bring Sotutu in at 8, that'd really help our balance. With Dalton on the bench we have good cover across all loose forward positions - Scooter, Dalton and Akira covering 6, Dalton and Ardie covering 7, Ardie, Sotutu and Akira covering 8.
I'm lost. So Akira AND Dalton on the bench?
Akira starting. Yes, Frizzel can fuck right off.
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@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I would do that immediately.
I would also bring in Dalton this week to play no 7 and see if that improves our back row balance.
I don't advocate dropping Cane entirely - just give him a week off and reassess.
How does bringing Dalton in improve the balance? When you say 'clearly not the best in his position', who is? If Ardie then move Ardie
I didn't say that Cane is "clearly not the best" in his position.
I said that Cane is "not clearly the best" in his position.
In other words, Cane might be best but then again he might not be. Others should get a go, particularly a guy who was in good form during Supe like Dalton Papalii.
Ardie is a no.8 in my book. That is his best position in my opinion.
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@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I would do that immediately.
I would also bring in Dalton this week to play no 7 and see if that improves our back row balance.
I don't advocate dropping Cane entirely - just give him a week off and reassess.
How does bringing Dalton in improve the balance? When you say 'clearly not the best in his position', who is? If Ardie then move Ardie
I didn't say that Cane is "clearly not the best" in his position.
I said that Cane is "not clearly the best" in his position.
In other words, Cane might be best but then again he might not be. Others should get a go, particularly a guy who was in good form during Supe like Dalton Papalii.
Ardie is a no.8 in my book. That is his best position in my opinion.
And so you see where the selectors are coming from then? It is Cane or someone untried when every game is a must win.
I understand both sides of the argument but I also think that decision is far easier to make from a keyboard. -
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@dogmeat said in Worst AB Captain:
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
I also think that decision is far easier to make from a keyboard
Another Heathen!
Keyboard warriors are the real deal!!!
- and armchair selectors never make a mistake.
That quote from Mike Tyson springs to mind whenever I hear that term…..
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@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
There's no doubt he had a very quiet (ineffective) game against the Argentinians. IMO his input doesn't suit a game where we clearly dominate territory and possession, so unless he gets more involved in thsoe type of fixtures, we need to find someone who will.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I'd give it to Whitelock. Sotutu is better as a #8 IMO, which leaves a bench option or moving to openside.
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If only Luke Whitelock was still around to captain the ABs to redemptive glory.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Worst AB Captain:
If only Luke Whitelock was still around to captain the ABs to redemptive glory.
Upvote for some brilliant comedy
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@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@Damo said in Worst AB Captain:
Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I would do that immediately.
I would also bring in Dalton this week to play no 7 and see if that improves our back row balance.
I don't advocate dropping Cane entirely - just give him a week off and reassess.
How does bringing Dalton in improve the balance? When you say 'clearly not the best in his position', who is? If Ardie then move Ardie
I didn't say that Cane is "clearly not the best" in his position.
I said that Cane is "not clearly the best" in his position.
In other words, Cane might be best but then again he might not be. Others should get a go, particularly a guy who was in good form during Supe like Dalton Papalii.
Ardie is a no.8 in my book. That is his best position in my opinion.
And so you see where the selectors are coming from then? It is Cane or someone untried when every game is a must win.
I understand both sides of the argument but I also think that decision is far easier to make from a keyboard.Well the "tried" that we are doing at the moment isn't working. The Blues were in good form in Super Rugby and we should see if that carries over. He deserves a chance at least.
I don't believe that we should carry on with status quo when the team is playing such dire rugby.
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@Duluth said in Worst AB Captain:
Ardie has played almost exclusively at no8 in 2020, 2021 & 2022. This is at SR and Test level. He hasn’t played regularly at 7 since 2019
Apparently keeping him in his regular position is playing him out of position & playing him out of position is not playing him out of position
If you want to move him - fine. I can see merit in that and it may well work. The out of position argument isn’t coherent when he’s been at 8 for so long and is playing well
i get what you're saying but i kind of feel just because he's worn the 8 jersey doesn't mean he's played as "8", he plays as a 7 on the edges and in link play.
I dont think he is a bad "8"...far from it...i just feel something like
7 savea and 8 sotutu > 7 cane 8 savea
I feel its the combinations that arent working and we can still get all the great stauff savea is doing...but also get the benefits an proper 8 brings and might actually work well together where i feel avea and cane kind of just do their own things
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@BerniesCorner said in Worst AB Captain:
He would be even better at 7
Ardie? Watch what he did when he moved to 7 once Cane was subbed. Savea is great if you want a goal line turnover but he doesn't arrive at many rucks otherwise. So we won't be improving support of the ball carrier or cleaning the opposition players at the breakdown.
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@Bovidae said in Worst AB Captain:
@BerniesCorner said in Worst AB Captain:
He would be even better at 7
Ardie? Watch what he did when he moved to 7 once Cane was subbed. Savea is great if you want a goal line turnover but he doesn't arrive at many rucks otherwise. So we won't be improving support of the ball carrier or cleaning the opposition players at the breakdown.
Of course going from an 8 to a 7 would be a difficult transition in a game. He has been playing an 8 for a while now. In addition haven’t we moved on to the players pilfering and clearing out rucks are whoever is in the vicinity?
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@broughie cant we have both? everyone should be able too...but we can also have someone whose focus on defence is to be a fucking nuisance
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@Kiwiwomble sure. Is Cane that person?
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@Kirwan said in Worst AB Captain:
@Duluth said in Worst AB Captain:
Ardie has played almost exclusively at no8 in 2020, 2021 & 2022. This is at SR and Test level. He hasn’t played regularly at 7 since 2019
Apparently keeping him in his regular position is playing him out of position & playing him out of position is not playing him out of position
If you want to move him - fine. I can see merit in that and it may well work. The out of position argument isn’t coherent when he’s been at 8 for so long and is playing well
And more to the point, he's playing well at 8. Even when the tight five goes completely missing like in the last 30mins.
Correct me if wrong but Ardie really starts dominating in last 30-40, but isn't a huge lineout presence or makes big carries in the first half (is a good tackler but not a dominant one) so why not put him on the bench and put a specialist 8 on the field for 40-50 minutes? If you think he is the best player at 7 or 8 and should be on the field for 80 minutes so be it. And I personally believe he is still a great 7. But I understand he doesn't play there any more. But surely, athletically and in terms of turnovers and a running (and linking game) he is now ahead of Cane?
If they played a traditional England game, Cane's strengths come to the fore, but the ABs typically don't seem to play a game that suits forwards like the current Cane (who started off his AB career by having a good running game if I recall correctly). -
oh and calling a player a moron because you don't like his form or selection isn't something I agree with. I'm also not sure who is calling the shots on the field, the stupid kicks from 10 in earlier games looked like instructions were from the coaching. But still, moron is harsh and in Cane's case unfair.
I'd like to see him rested too, I'd also like to see another Captain who seems hungrier and more driven, but I'm not on the field and Cane is probably popular with not just the coach but also the players.
