Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Keeping or changing the AB will coach will not fix these issues, at least not in any significant way. However, changing the AB coach could fix the problem of us playing an out of date game plan, which relies on skills and talent we simply don't have anymore.
I think we should aim for a bit more than a "could".
And what's the contingency plan if the next bloke doesn't do any better?
Nothing is a given. But would you prefer to stay with Fozzie? Almost any other pro sport and he would have been fired already
No, I'm not saying that at all. But that ship seems to have sailed and we have to work with the reality.
In my ideal scenario, we would have picked another coach and given him to the end of the 2022 EOYT to do better than Foster did in the same period in 2021 in the RC & EOYT, and have a contingency plan in place. If the new bloke didn't meet that criteria - e.g. 2 losses or less - activate that plan which could include sacking the new coach.
I hope that's what's happening now within NZR, but I'm not holding my breath....
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@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Keeping or changing the AB will coach will not fix these issues, at least not in any significant way. However, changing the AB coach could fix the problem of us playing an out of date game plan, which relies on skills and talent we simply don't have anymore.
I think we should aim for a bit more than a "could".
And what's the contingency plan if the next bloke doesn't do any better?
Well, that depends on the candidate, when they are appointed, for how long and what their mandate is.
In my view, the immediate plan should be to appoint someone to squeeze as much juice as possible out of these lemons as possible so that they don't embarrass themselves at the RWC next year. In parallel, you put in place the plan to appoint someone - maybe even the same guy, but I would hope they canvass all possibilities, unlike last time - to do the re-build from 2024 onwards.
In that scenario, the "what if they fail" outcome would be something like not making it out of pool at the RWC or exiting in the quarter finals in embarrassing fashion (i.e. getting pantsed like we were in the 3rd test against Ireland). We are already on this course and so I don't necessarily see this being fatal to whoever takes over continuing on in 2024 - but this will depend upon what the other potential options are.
Honestly, I don't see this scenario playing out because I think (a) between now and the EOYT there will be enough signs of life to carry on with Fozzie and his new assistants (plus whatever changes they may in next while), and (b) by the end of this year, no one would want to come within 100 ft of the role for such a short and (in all likelihood) ultimately doomed campaign - at least not from outside the current coaching group.
So, I think the best that can be expected for those who want Fozzie out is that Schmidt takes over in the new year with the current assistants, plus one or two others (maybe Leon and someone else), to basically put together something that might let us arse our way into a RWC final - looking at you England 2007 and France 2011 - and then Razor takes the reins in 2024, with Schmidt returning to his selector / analyst role.
And if I get a response like "and what if Razor fails", I will have to put you on mute - that is a problem for the future.
Pretty hard to disagree with any of that.
The only thing I'd add is I'd like to see is a full and deep review after this years EOYT on the state of things and some calm sensible decisions made which looks towards maximising RWC2023 outcomes and building post 2023.
Oh and for this to be communicated a wee bit better from NZR than in the past.
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@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior yeah I disagree. We don't see these same issues in high intensity SR games. The players have the skills (look at the difference between Jordan in black vs Jordan in red and black). It's got to come down to AB training, game plan and implementation for mine.
The thing which is really frustrating is that the team can perform. The 3rd quarter against France last year and the 2nd quarter a week or so ago being examples.
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@reprobate said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's. In an ideal world he'd have taken an Assistant role so he could ease himself in but he turned that down saying it was head-honcho or nothing. You can say he didn't want to work under a clown, but the optics are poor.
Fair enough. But ceteris paribus, we gotta go with the best coach we can find first to see if that has a major influence. As for testing that coach, we would want to see an improvement in coherency, playing style, and yes results.
I don't see the ABs as a "suck it and see", experimental test-tube environment - we have to do better than that.
Robertson has had success as a head coach. Foster has not. Rather than think about where we'd be if Robertson replicates U20, think about where we are with Foster replicating the Chiefs.
Why? Isn't success at international level important?
There are two approaches for filling jobs: one is promoting from within, and one is recruiting from without - why do you think only promoting from within is valid?
Big jump to that conclusion. As I've said before, I'd be happy for anyone to take over from Foster - on the proviso he delivers better results than Foster over, say, 9 Tests and NZR has a contingency plan if the new bloke fails to do that,which could include sacking him.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior yeah I disagree. We don't see these same issues in high intensity SR games. The players have the skills (look at the difference between Jordan in black vs Jordan in red and black). It's got to come down to AB training, game plan and implementation for mine.
The thing which is really frustrating is that the team can perform. The 3rd quarter against France last year and the 2nd quarter a week or so ago being examples.
Is that a case of Ireland and France relaxing a bit/not being as accurate as they had been? Or the ABs raising their game to a level their opponents couldn't deal with?
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior yeah I disagree. We don't see these same issues in high intensity SR games. The players have the skills (look at the difference between Jordan in black vs Jordan in red and black). It's got to come down to AB training, game plan and implementation for mine.
The thing which is really frustrating is that the team can perform. The 3rd quarter against France last year and the 2nd quarter a week or so ago being examples.
Is that a case of Ireland and France relaxing a bit/not being as accurate as they had been? Or the ABs raising their game to a level their opponents couldn't deal with?
The latter I think. We forced errors in the other team which we exploited. There was a lot more dynamism and precision about our play in those periods.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Great post.
NZR were so quick to fire Mitchell and Deans who went through a clean sweep of the Tri-Nations, put 50 points on SA and Australia away. Won the Bledisloe and then lost one game, the semi and were fired. I think it was the only second game they lost that season. I think the All Blacks will be stronger for the changes but a 0-2 loss might be what the All Blacks really need.
You raise a really good point.
It's arguable that the AB's did better when NZR scrapped the "Hire & Fire" mentality and went with Continuity Ted after the RWC2007 debacle but did a drains-up on the state of the ABs at the same time. Needed now.
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@Frank well one thing we don’t have with this coaching set up is consistency in selection. That’s a prime example. Put the best players out there and in that might establish some continuity. That’s beyond rotation especially when you have a series decider in the line.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Keeping or changing the AB will coach will not fix these issues, at least not in any significant way. However, changing the AB coach could fix the problem of us playing an out of date game plan, which relies on skills and talent we simply don't have anymore.
I think we should aim for a bit more than a "could".
And what's the contingency plan if the next bloke doesn't do any better?
Well, that depends on the candidate, when they are appointed, for how long and what their mandate is.
In my view, the immediate plan should be to appoint someone to squeeze as much juice as possible out of these lemons as possible so that they don't embarrass themselves at the RWC next year. In parallel, you put in place the plan to appoint someone - maybe even the same guy, but I would hope they canvass all possibilities, unlike last time - to do the re-build from 2024 onwards.
In that scenario, the "what if they fail" outcome would be something like not making it out of pool at the RWC or exiting in the quarter finals in embarrassing fashion (i.e. getting pantsed like we were in the 3rd test against Ireland). We are already on this course and so I don't necessarily see this being fatal to whoever takes over continuing on in 2024 - but this will depend upon what the other potential options are.
Honestly, I don't see this scenario playing out because I think (a) between now and the EOYT there will be enough signs of life to carry on with Fozzie and his new assistants (plus whatever changes they may in next while), and (b) by the end of this year, no one would want to come within 100 ft of the role for such a short and (in all likelihood) ultimately doomed campaign - at least not from outside the current coaching group.
So, I think the best that can be expected for those who want Fozzie out is that Schmidt takes over in the new year with the current assistants, plus one or two others (maybe Leon and someone else), to basically put together something that might let us arse our way into a RWC final - looking at you England 2007 and France 2011 - and then Razor takes the reins in 2024, with Schmidt returning to his selector / analyst role.
And if I get a response like "and what if Razor fails", I will have to put you on mute - that is a problem for the future.
Pretty hard to disagree with any of that.
The only thing I'd add is I'd like to see is a full and deep review after this years EOYT on the state of things and some calm sensible decisions made which looks towards maximising RWC2023 outcomes and building post 2023.
Oh and for this to be communicated a wee bit better from NZR than in the past.
I agree that would be great but in my view that is a completely separate question to who should coach the ABs in the next 18 months. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, the deeper issues with respect to skills and talent will take much longer to fix - the current performance and the Foster issue are related but ultimately require a very different solution over a much shorter timeframe.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior yeah I disagree. We don't see these same issues in high intensity SR games. The players have the skills (look at the difference between Jordan in black vs Jordan in red and black). It's got to come down to AB training, game plan and implementation for mine.
The thing which is really frustrating is that the team can perform. The 3rd quarter against France last year and the 2nd quarter a week or so ago being examples.
The question needs to be asked - what did we actually do during those periods? Well, we asked our forwards to play like forwards and smash their way through the opposition. And we did that with some measure of success. So maybe the issue is not with our forwards per se but that we are asking them to do something other than being forwards…?
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@taniwharugby 100%. For a start the team from 2016 was built around SBW which is fine but, problem was, he was too involved in league or he was injured for most of the time. Meanwhile, Ryan Crotty and ALB were forming a pretty good centre pairing. An SBW shoulder charge really cost us the Lions series although the team was in decline from the end of year tour, and by 2019 SH had no idea who his best side was as half were injured, half had never played and 100% had never played as a unit for god knows how long. We got absolutely bitched out by the Poms, we lost to the Pumas, beat the Wobs, struggled against the Boks who struggled with a team we beat pretty easily, hell even the USA rushed our attack, they just aren't good enough as a team to come close, struggled against Italy, ok against Wales and sucked completely in the last two tests. Fozzie's had almost 3 years has head coach and 8 as assistant and the team is going down. How can his position not be challenged? Jesus, people hated Mitch and he took a shit team and unearthed some greats with an 80% winning record. He had a quarter of the time with the team Foz has had. The calls for him and the coaching team to be removed is more than valid. So what if Razor comes in and sucks? Would he suck any more than Foz? It blows my mind we've allowed this rot to set in and now only question the results.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew well given the issues showed signs in 2016 and really started bedding in circa 2017/2018, I think the fact none of the coaching team responded to this at the time is a big part of the problem...Maybe Fozzie is a good coach, but the ingrained issues that have been festering for near on 5 years now are now a major issue, but no one did anything about it, until now (Hansen and his team, that included Foster, and then Foster and his team)
It should be on them to identify issues in our game at the top, which will be there at Super and start working with Super coaches to fix these...this isnt on NZR, they are responsible for a completely separate pile of shit!
Tend to agree with much of that but don't think everything to do with solving player issues at the top is down to one bloke and/or his assistants to identify, negotiate with all the coaches in the land and fix. That's a role for NZR overall as they are the ones with the bandwidth, clout and ability to manage player performance and skill levels overall at the top level - obviously after feed-in from the AB coaching team & players.
Would be interesting to know if Hansen, Foster and the senior players have raised issues with NZR and what the response was. Not that we're likely to find out with the current comms strategy.
absolutely disagree that he is not responsible, sure, not with all the players down through to NPC, but if he identifies a weakness with our props (or other aspects) work away from the scrum, he needs to go to the Super guys, who in turn go to the NPC who in turn look at club/1st 15 to start working on the issue....as I said earlier when the Cron way was getting results, they were teaching his ways right down the chain.
So absolutely starts with the guy at the top (right now, Fozzie) especially one that has been a part of the existing structure/systems for 10 years...part of his role is, or damn well should include development of players into the national side (which must include guys he sees at super that are close, but need polishing, so is he giving the direction to that player and those around him, or getting the support he needs to move that player through) therefore recognising issues that prevent guys getting there, or weaknesses in our game at the top is absolutely on him and his team.
NZR are culpable in the fact they appointed him, maybe he has been asking for things and they are not giving him them, but he is the boots on the ground, he shouold have the best knowledge about how to make his team the very best...NZR are there to give hi the tools.
I think for SA we just need to go back to basics, play some simple structured attack, play % rugby.
We also need to stop kicking ball away given how poor our defence is at defending almost anything outside the 22.
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@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable". Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
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@Victor-Meldrew As much as we sucked, we had every opportunity to win those games. Big come backs for 10-20 mins and then it was on pass, one missed tackle, one bad read and the game was over.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
part of his role is, or damn well should include development of players into the national side (which must include guys he sees at super that are close, but need polishing, so is he giving the direction to that player and those around him, or getting the support he needs to move that player through) therefore recognising issues that prevent guys getting there, or weaknesses in our game at the top is absolutely on him and his team.
Well someone needs to take charge of that and the AB coach seems a logical choice. But has Foster, and Hansen before him, been getting the support he needs from NZR and co-operation from the SR Franchises? Using Akira as an example, you have to question if that was not there pre-McDonald days.
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@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though. If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins. There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
