Foster, Robertson etc
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
True that. Although, it normally takes a lot for him to put the boot into the ABs.
First ever home series loss to Ireland after being bossed on the 2021 EOYT?
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@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
In amongst the dross from Barnes, there are some interesting nuggets:
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Would you pick Cane in front of any of the no.7 options NZ's main opponents are capable of fielding? Hooper, Kolisi, Van der Flier, Jelonch, Curry. Would you take any of them over Cane?
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Is Cane the best no.7 NZ have available right now? Papalii and Savea are arguably better options in the here and now. This isn't a question to denigrate someone who has been a real servant to NZ rugby. McCaw was questioned several times over his career and always found an answer to shut up the naysayers.
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If the answer to 2 is No, the captain question is a redundant one. It would be a long time ago that NZ played someone at no.7 that was not the best the best in the country and did not measure up against the players available to other nations.
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So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
On current form, I would pick Hooper, assuming the ABs played a lineout option at 6 or 8.
I would also put Curry and Van der Flier ahead of Cane. Not sure about Kolisi (he can have good and bad games), but Kolisi certainly has mana in the Bok team and leads them well.
Jelonch? He is part of a well balanced French back row that as a unit is working very well. But individually, not sure.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
In Cane's defence, I don't think the backrow combinations he played with in Tests 2 and 3 helped him. His best performance (and the team's) was in Test 1 when Barrett was at 6.
I think Papalii at 7 in Test 3, in tandem with Ioane and Savea, would have worked better. But that's a hunch, especially after Papalii's performance in Test 2. I guess I feel Papalii is the future, and given there isn't much if anything between him and Cane right now, he should be given the no.7 jersey for several tests so he can forge a combination with the other back row options.
NZ know what they have in Cane. Shoe horning Savea into no.8 and picking Cane at 7 doesn't really give much flexibility in finding the right back row combination. We're not talking peak McCaw and Read here who were nigh on undroppable (based solely on their performances).
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argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something. -
This post is deleted!
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something.Or is he under instructions to play tighter to allow Savea to play a looser game and range wider where he can use his athleticism?
Cane was playing ok for the Chiefs this year. My post above was based solely on the form he showed in the Irish test series.
It will be interesting to see how he is utilised by Ryan.
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something.Or is he under instructions to play tighter to allow Savea to play a looser game and range wider where he can use his athleticism?
Cane was playing ok for the Chiefs this year. My post above was based solely on the form he showed in the Irish test series.
It will be interesting to see how he is utilised by Ryan.
Another case of shitty game plan and organisation making an AB player look like the worst version of himself?
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Hopper and Savea in the same trio is not good. The rest i could make a case for.
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i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix
I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.
There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?
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@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix
I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.
There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?
Pretty sure Ryan will concentrate on maul defence and attack only. The bigger thinking around strategies and roles will come in slowly.
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly. A few errors, but that is normal. I really don't think he is anywhere near as bad as some are making out. His game is being affected by the state of the team and the burden he is shouldering for sure. Probably hasn't been playing with a clear head and a trip away with a 'new' start may help massively. -
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh.
he's doing exactly what you expect, and what is hard to replace - putting 100% out there, all the time, and being a defensive monster. His problem is that he's not that dynamic a ball carrier, so he's at risk of being Pocock V2.0, but instead of turnovers it's hard tackles. You can paper over those cracks with others, but that's how you wind up in the place we are now with unbalanced loose forward trios
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly
i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark
Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more. -
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
In amongst the dross from Barnes, there are some interesting nuggets:
- Would you pick Cane in front of any of the no.7 options NZ's main opponents are capable of fielding? Hooper, Kolisi, Van der Flier, Jelonch, Curry. Would you take any of them over Cane?
Possibly, but it depends on the type of defence and who you have around them.
- Is Cane the best no.7 NZ have available right now? Papalii and Savea are arguably better options in the here and now. This isn't a question to denigrate someone who has been a real servant to NZ rugby. McCaw was questioned several times over his career and always found an answer to shut up the naysayers.
It is arguable whether he's in the best form given how well Papali'i played in Super Rugby, but his impact in defence can't be denied.
- If the answer to 2 is No, the captain question is a redundant one. It would be a long time ago that NZ played someone at no.7 that was not the best the best in the country and did not measure up against the players available to other nations.
Well we're not fielding our best no.8, so there's that.
I'd say the broader problem is that our loose forwards are situated to be effective when we have the ball, but we don't play to that shape because we don't go forward with the tight five or our backs.
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@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly
i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark
Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.
Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?
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@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly
i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark
Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.
Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?
bro, i am sorry, i really am.
(i've actually lived here as long as i ever lived in Tga)but Captain Sam is not above reproach. But if you want me to have a go at some others for balance i will (Sam Whitelock is in much the same boat)
