Foster, Robertson etc
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@Stargazer said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders pay-walled
New Zealand captain Sam Cane isn’t even good enough to get in the Italy side, let alone lead the All Blacks to a World Cup new Stuart Barnes Saturday July 23 2022, 6.00pm BST, The Sunday Times The odds against New Zealand regaining the World Cup are growing. Ireland’s first series win on Kiwi soil was an opportunity for this legendary rugby land to reboot their chances — an opportunity to freshen up their leadership both on and off the field. They did neither. Ian Foster remains in charge off the field, Sam Cane on it. Cane’s captaincy is an continuing debate down under. Foster’s comments on the subject were a convincing case for removing the New Zealand manager. “The easiest thing to do when a series doesn’t go your way is to point the finger,” he said. Foster’s problem is quite the opposite. Even as the hosts were winning the first Test 42-19, there were clear indications the team and back row would be better balanced with Ardie Savea at open-side and Cane left out of the squad. Cane was dominated by Van der Flier in the home series defeat by Ireland Cane was dominated by Van der Flier in the home series defeat by Ireland GETTY IMAGES Josh van der Flier had eclipsed the open-side. Here was the moment, with a 1-0 lead, for Foster to make the hard choice and drop his fellow Waikato man. Management is about making hard choices as much as avoiding the easy ones. New Zealand fans, according to their manager, “have a promise that we are looking forward to getting stuck into our work”. As if they have been guilty of indolence. It’s one of the best definitions of madness. Something fails repeatedly so you work harder at doing the same thing. The blinkers are well and truly on. Roll back the years to 2015 and the World Cup in England. Chris Robshaw was captain without being anything like good enough to retain his place in the team on ability — or decision-making as Stuart Lancaster would find out at the pool stage. Lancaster had closed his mind, and England, with their captain struggling against the likes of Michael Hooper, David Pocock and Sam Warburton, crashed out. Steffon Armitage was dominating club rugby at Toulon. He was one of the best jackals in the world and only the best survive at elite level. But Lancaster didn’t utilise the “exceptional circumstances” clause for France-based players and recall the one bloke who could have galvanised the back row. What did Eddie Jones call the Harlequins skipper? A “six and a half”. Stripped of the captaincy by Jones after the World Cup and turned into a blind-side, he played some heroic stuff in the early Eddie era. Foster’s blind faith in Cane is reminiscent of Lancaster’s decision to stick with Robshaw in the 2015 World Cup Foster’s blind faith in Cane is reminiscent of Lancaster’s decision to stick with Robshaw in the 2015 World Cup GETTY IMAGES Australia, with two of the best open-sides in tandem — made the final but New Zealand prevailed with just the one seven. They wouldn’t have swapped Richie McCaw for the pair of outstanding Australians. The men in black have won three World Cups; Michael Jones was regal in 1987 and McCaw central in the successive 2011 and 2015 triumphs. If ten has a history of being the magical number in Welsh rugby, New Zealand have their equivalent seven. Aardie Savea is among the contenders for being the best open-side on earth but Foster plays him at No 8. It keeps Cane in place. Cane is a captain whose position in the global pecking order of international open-sides is a long way from the lofty dominance of Jones and McCaw. Even Foster, I presume, would accept that his skipper was played off the park by Van der Flier. When Ireland were roaring away on the front foot, he couldn’t slow them down with either the weight of tackle or cunning at the breakdown. When New Zealand claimed the front foot, he was anonymous compared with skilful ball-carriers and offloaders like Savea. Yet he has been appointed captain for the forthcoming Rugby Championship between his country, South Africa, Australia and Argentina. New Zealand’s traditional rivals are both led by their open-sides. Seven is a significant position. Hooper has been one of the outstanding open-sides for many years. He leads by the example he sets and by what he achieves. Foster has “got a lot of faith in Sam”. Judged by the recent tour, it is faith of a religious disposition. There’s little in the way of evidence. Here is New Zealand’s very own “six and a half”. The South African world champions have a lot of faith in the leadership powers — not to mention raw power — of their open-side skipper, Siya Kolisi. The Springboks wouldn’t think of swapping their captain for anyone, let alone New Zealand’s skipper. Tommy Reffell arrived on the Test stage in South Africa with some superb performances for Wales. His capacity to stop the Springboks in their tracks is critical in the task of depriving these giant forwards of their much needed momentum. Would Wales swap their seven for Cane? Gregor Townsend made Hamish Watson Scotland’s captain in the absence of Stuart Hogg and the open-side was one of the outstanding players in the series. Thanks, Sam, but you’re not for Scotland either. England suffered from open-side injuries but Tom Curry and Sam Underhill are ahead of Cane, while Lewis Ludlam is progressing so quickly New Zealand’s skipper would struggle to make the England squad. Where is the aura that went with the gnarled majesty of McCaw? France have a big, powerful seven in the imposing shape of Toulouse’s Anthony Jelonch. A lineout option and fearsomely strong in the way French packs are and New Zealand’s are not. And while we are on mainland Europe, let’s be brutally honest. His fellow New Zealander, Kieran Crowley, now in charge of Italy, wouldn’t swap his inspiring Michale Lamero for the brave, battered but decidedly second-hand looking Cane. Good enough for New Zealand, not for Italy. -
@Victor-Meldrew Thanks!
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@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
True that. Although, it normally takes a lot for him to put the boot into the ABs.
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
True that. Although, it normally takes a lot for him to put the boot into the ABs.
First ever home series loss to Ireland after being bossed on the 2021 EOYT?
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@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.
In amongst the dross from Barnes, there are some interesting nuggets:
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Would you pick Cane in front of any of the no.7 options NZ's main opponents are capable of fielding? Hooper, Kolisi, Van der Flier, Jelonch, Curry. Would you take any of them over Cane?
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Is Cane the best no.7 NZ have available right now? Papalii and Savea are arguably better options in the here and now. This isn't a question to denigrate someone who has been a real servant to NZ rugby. McCaw was questioned several times over his career and always found an answer to shut up the naysayers.
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If the answer to 2 is No, the captain question is a redundant one. It would be a long time ago that NZ played someone at no.7 that was not the best the best in the country and did not measure up against the players available to other nations.
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So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
On current form, I would pick Hooper, assuming the ABs played a lineout option at 6 or 8.
I would also put Curry and Van der Flier ahead of Cane. Not sure about Kolisi (he can have good and bad games), but Kolisi certainly has mana in the Bok team and leads them well.
Jelonch? He is part of a well balanced French back row that as a unit is working very well. But individually, not sure.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
So .....would you pick Cane over the other players Barnes mentioned?
In Cane's defence, I don't think the backrow combinations he played with in Tests 2 and 3 helped him. His best performance (and the team's) was in Test 1 when Barrett was at 6.
I think Papalii at 7 in Test 3, in tandem with Ioane and Savea, would have worked better. But that's a hunch, especially after Papalii's performance in Test 2. I guess I feel Papalii is the future, and given there isn't much if anything between him and Cane right now, he should be given the no.7 jersey for several tests so he can forge a combination with the other back row options.
NZ know what they have in Cane. Shoe horning Savea into no.8 and picking Cane at 7 doesn't really give much flexibility in finding the right back row combination. We're not talking peak McCaw and Read here who were nigh on undroppable (based solely on their performances).
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argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something. -
This post is deleted!
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something.Or is he under instructions to play tighter to allow Savea to play a looser game and range wider where he can use his athleticism?
Cane was playing ok for the Chiefs this year. My post above was based solely on the form he showed in the Irish test series.
It will be interesting to see how he is utilised by Ryan.
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
argh. Best not to comment.
But I can't help it with Cane, before his injury he was showing his running game in the ABs and it gave the loosies that much more punch-I don't see it now, I suspect he has stuffed knees or something.Or is he under instructions to play tighter to allow Savea to play a looser game and range wider where he can use his athleticism?
Cane was playing ok for the Chiefs this year. My post above was based solely on the form he showed in the Irish test series.
It will be interesting to see how he is utilised by Ryan.
Another case of shitty game plan and organisation making an AB player look like the worst version of himself?
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Hopper and Savea in the same trio is not good. The rest i could make a case for.
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i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix
I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.
There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?
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@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix
I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.
There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?
Pretty sure Ryan will concentrate on maul defence and attack only. The bigger thinking around strategies and roles will come in slowly.
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly. A few errors, but that is normal. I really don't think he is anywhere near as bad as some are making out. His game is being affected by the state of the team and the burden he is shouldering for sure. Probably hasn't been playing with a clear head and a trip away with a 'new' start may help massively. -
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh.
he's doing exactly what you expect, and what is hard to replace - putting 100% out there, all the time, and being a defensive monster. His problem is that he's not that dynamic a ball carrier, so he's at risk of being Pocock V2.0, but instead of turnovers it's hard tackles. You can paper over those cracks with others, but that's how you wind up in the place we are now with unbalanced loose forward trios
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly
i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark
Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more. -
