All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider
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@Hooroo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
The lack of a red card in that collision was great. I don’t even like it was yellow.
Not sure I agree. Imagine for a second you’re watching that happen to your son or partner. You’d feel absolutely sick, not just about the immediate injury but potential long term effects. There’s an element of chance in this for sure but you have to make it worth players’ while to put the effort in to change their technique.
I think each was a clear yellow, but the committee reaffirmed with Ta’avao’s ban that red is the correct sanction, so these two must surely have met the same threshold as they resulted in actually injuries.
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@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Halfout said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
As stated Samisoni not starting , quite unfathomable
We are in perpetual sh*t until forwards 1-5 become consistently competitive.NZ has enough raw material to work with. Need a better mix of ball players Vs workers. If you can't do your core job (throwing, lifting, scrummaging), offer nothing around the field and are a liability on defence, it is time to sit out until you show you can do it again. Consistently.
NZ miss someone like Franks who shifts bodies and does their core job well. They have a player like Mealamu in ST. Moody's drop off in form has been a big hit to the tight five.
Locks....there is some talent coming through, but they are green. But still enough to form a good enough tight five that is more than competitive.
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders I don't think the insularity is a problem.
There is no sensible gameplan.
Look at the Ireland back 3. A Brumbie cast off, a NZ cast off and Hugo Keenan.
None of the 3 of them would get in New Zealands team.
Keenan is not Christian Cullen.
Hansen is a journey man and Lowe was being slagged by Chris Ashton for being slow and fat last year.
But the three of them catch all their kicks and kick back intelligently. They don't get tackled into touch, they recycle and they make their tackles.
James Lowes left boot is used the way Dagg's used to be. They play all the rugby in our half. Their wingers fall over the line from 5 yards for their tries. Will Jordan has to score his from 70 meters. They have a system and we don't. Imagine what Andy Farrell could do with Reece, Jordan and Jordie.
Every player on that Ireland team is squeezing every ounce out of their ability.
Ireland choose the players to fit the system and game plan. NZ seem to choose their best players and then the game plan.
Are NZ too scared to drop the stars for fear they will leave?
Keenan may be no Christian Cullen, but then again who is? I must admit I was stunned when he was first capped, but he quickly became one of my favourite players. He is a very complete fullback who is equally comfortable in defence or attack, and is rated by even English papers as the best full back in the NH. Low error and runs great support lines.
I’m not a fan of Lowe’s as I think his error rate is too high, but Hansen has been a revelation from his first touch in international rugby. He is a brilliant footballer who plays right across the line, and understands fully what Farrell wants. As was said he suits the multiphase game Farrell has put in place, and he has been outstanding for us, a real bolter. The ABs love strike runners on the wing, and they’ve produced some of rugby’s greatest wingers, but we don’t have a lot of Howletts or Lomus hanging about.
Ireland's back 3 complement each other and suit the game plan. They are good players, but their combination makes them better.
Henry chose Kahui on the wing, not because he was the best winger, but because he brought balance to the back 3. Low error rate, high work rate. Perfect for test match rugby.
NZ have to select better. Test match rugby is about pressure. How much you can exert on the other team until they break. Then you can use your skills to seize on the opportunities. Not before.
In NZ we want every player to be an excitement machine. Trouble is that attitude is now part of the makeup of our players. They are rewarded for risks at lower levels that they can’t get away with against top flight test teams. We have to have a reset. The Crusaders have always had a more conservative, more structured game plan than say the Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes. Their dominance of Super Rugby over a long period of time often with players that are less flashy, but play within a pattern is a good indicator of what works. Two of our best players are a good indicator of our problems. BB is a 1st five that can’t kick (despite 1 excellent touch finder last night ) and Ardie Savea who is a light weight 7 (in todays rugby) playing at 8 impacting the balance of our loose forwards. We seem to want to fit all these talented players on the field before working out a plan that will win Test matches.
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@JC The difference was Porter was moving backwards, while Ta avao was moving forward. In any game there are a huge amount of upright tackles where the defender is going backwards and it's a bit of a lottery whether there is head contact.
I completely agree that it's the tacklers responsibility to get into a safe position. But I think if you look at it objectively, the two events were different.
If the Ta avao red card hadn't happened I don't think there would be many people saying porter deserves a red.
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@Ludraman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@JC The difference was Porter was moving backwards, while Ta avao was moving forward. In any game there are a huge amount of upright tackles where the defender is going backwards and it's a bit of a lottery whether there is head contact.
I completely agree that it's the tacklers responsibility to get into a safe position. But I think if you look at it objectively, the two events were different.
If the Ta avao red card hadn't happened I don't think there would be many people saying porter deserves a red.
We can argue about the separate incidents. The fact remains that there was no consistency in the rulings. They both have to be RCs once WR sets the precedent
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@JC said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Hooroo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
The lack of a red card in that collision was great. I don’t even like it was yellow.
Not sure I agree. Imagine for a second you’re watching that happen to your son or partner. You’d feel absolutely sick, not just about the immediate injury but potential long term effects. There’s an element of chance in this for sure but you have to make it worth players’ while to put the effort in to change their technique.
I think each was a clear yellow, but the committee reaffirmed with Ta’avao’s ban that red is the correct sanction, so these two must surely have met the same threshold as they resulted in actually injuries.
I’ve watched rugby all my life and my rugby thought process isn’t like that.
If it is foul and intentional, send them. The red last week and this collision were neither of those.
Site and sort after game for those ones. Don’t ruin the game because of a genuine accident
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Ludraman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@JC The difference was Porter was moving backwards, while Ta avao was moving forward. In any game there are a huge amount of upright tackles where the defender is going backwards and it's a bit of a lottery whether there is head contact.
I completely agree that it's the tacklers responsibility to get into a safe position. But I think if you look at it objectively, the two events were different.
If the Ta avao red card hadn't happened I don't think there would be many people saying porter deserves a red.
We can argue about the separate incidents. The fact remains that there was no consistency in the rulings. They both have to be RCs once WR sets the precedent
I think there's no consistency with most areas of the game at the moment. Each referee refs the breakdown, scrum, ruck etc differently. They've been pretty good overall with regard to head contacts I think. I do think they need to determine what to do if the tackler is unable to react in time though, which is arguably the case both weeks.
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@Ludraman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@JC The difference was Porter was moving backwards, while Ta avao was moving forward. In any game there are a huge amount of upright tackles where the defender is going backwards and it's a bit of a lottery whether there is head contact.
I completely agree that it's the tacklers responsibility to get into a safe position. But I think if you look at it objectively, the two events were different.
If the Ta avao red card hadn't happened I don't think there would be many people saying porter deserves a red.
That’s why I said that I think YC would have been right. But what I think doesn’t matter. the judiciary ruled that RC is correct by banning Ta’avao. So Porter’s starting point becomes RC as well, unless there is mitigation, and Barnes clearly said there was no mitigation.
Consistency is what people are calling for. The judiciary said accident is immaterial. So they’re both reds, they’re both yellows or their both PKs.
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I think you have to include reckless alongside foul and intentional. I don’t think either the Ta’avu or Porter incident warranted red, but if you go back to Eng/Irl in the 6ns I’d argue the Hill fully deserved his red because it was the very definition of reckless. He came charging into a late tackle on a player leading with his head, but his lack of obvious intent was no defence.
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Barnes is one of the better referees in that he likes to keep the game moving and tries to not disrupt the flow. He's also one of the more lenient refs when it comes to dishing out red cards. Had he reffed last weeks game, the red card would have been a yellow, but I have a suspicion the first yellow against the Hansen clash might have been a red. Nigel Owens thought so and him and Barnes are very similar.
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@Ludraman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Ludraman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@JC The difference was Porter was moving backwards, while Ta avao was moving forward. In any game there are a huge amount of upright tackles where the defender is going backwards and it's a bit of a lottery whether there is head contact.
I completely agree that it's the tacklers responsibility to get into a safe position. But I think if you look at it objectively, the two events were different.
If the Ta avao red card hadn't happened I don't think there would be many people saying porter deserves a red.
We can argue about the separate incidents. The fact remains that there was no consistency in the rulings. They both have to be RCs once WR sets the precedent
I think there's no consistency with most areas of the game at the moment. Each referee refs the breakdown, scrum, ruck etc differently. They've been pretty good overall with regard to head contacts I think. I do think they need to determine what to do if the tackler is unable to react in time though, which is arguably the case both weeks.
There is definitely inconsistency at the breakdown and offsides among others. I thought Ireland got away with a fair amount at the breakdown, however if they get away with it good for them. We can't wait for the ref to bail us out, it is up to us to protect our own ball at ruck and maul time. But WR have decided that high tackles and head contact needs to be strictly punished. Lots of stuff that used to be fine is now penalised or more often carded. If they want to rule this area with almost netball ref like zeal, the least we should expect is consistency
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@Luigi said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Great game to watch. NZ response at the beginning of the 2nd half was classically ominous, but Ireland have played the ABs often enough recently to withstand. Tadgh Beirne was huuuuuuge.
All Black losses bring them all out of the woodwork ...
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Luigi said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Great game to watch. NZ response at the beginning of the 2nd half was classically ominous, but Ireland have played the ABs often enough recently to withstand. Tadgh Beirne was huuuuuuge.
All Black losses bring them all out of the woodwork ...
@Virgil your needed now as well.
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@Steve said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Lastly. The referring inconsistencies from week to week are fucking embarrassing. Ireland had 2 red cards today by current standards. I don't think they are reds personally but if the offences were committed by black shirts there would be gifs, Alastair Campbell presentations, tweets and screams of thuggery. On the UK sky sports they didn't even show a replay of the incidents post match. The whole fucking game hinged on them, The second test hinged on them.
This.
But difficult to whinge about given the circumstances.
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@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Marshall was saying on that Irish podcast that the NZR can’t afford to pay out all the contracts of the coaching staff. I guess the answer to that is can they afford not to??
Is that the actual situation or pure conjecture?
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@Steve said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Halfout Yeah fair enough.
I didn't think any of Angus, LF, Porter or Aki was a red but just laughed when Barnes downgraded it to a yellow. How can they do it with a straight face after the week before. Not once on any forum, in any media, tv, online or otherwise did I hear the word "absorption tackle" in the lead up to this week. But hey ho, out comes the phrase when its Porters turn for a red. Cipriani got a red for the something similar in the Heineken cup.
As an aside I thought Ofa was a penalty try the week before. I think the refs are getting big stuff wrong too often.
Edited just to add.....Barnes actually says to TMO while talking to him "there is no mitigation". So that in itself is indicative of the fact that it couldn't be downgraded from red to yellow. Yet he still did it anyway. Bizarre.
It wasn't just the card on the field. The Judiciary confirmed the decision was correct and gave AT 3 weeks.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Marshall was saying on that Irish podcast that the NZR can’t afford to pay out all the contracts of the coaching staff. I guess the answer to that is can they afford not to??
Is that the actual situation or pure conjecture?
If I was Silverlake watching my prize asset circling the bowl, I'd be ponying up an extraordinary cash payment to cover that cost. If that's true....
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My two cents from being at the game live last night.
Firstly, big congrats to Ireland. Worthy winners and completely outplayed us in all facets.
From an All Blacks perspective, two players really stood out for me and they were Ardie and Jordan.
Jason Pine summed Ardie up perfectly this morning, he’s herculean in the way he goes about his work, he just never fucking stops and was the only forward that consistently tried to get us moving last night. Everyone else, apart from one A Ioane bust and the odd Rettalick surge, were largely ineffective from where I was sitting. Is it time to give him the captaincy and move him to his best position of 7? I certainly think so. Cane looks cooked.
The other player that looked class every time he went near the ball was Will Jordan. Get him to fullback so he can get his hands on the ball more. That finish in the second half was a thing of absolute beauty, Christian Cullen mark 2.
Big black marks for me were Codie Taylor, he’s completely ineffective at this level. Whitelock tried hard but he’s really showing his age and just doesn’t have the grunt that he used to. Sam Cane was just disappointing, and being pulled really sums up his game atm, is it time to move on? Smith and Beauden looked like they had just begun their careers, absolutely no innovation from that pair last night, bloody disappointing. Is it time for Mo’unga to take the reigns? I think so.
And the irony, oh the irony of there being no one in NZ to get us over the bloody gain line. Havili definitely wasn’t the answer last night. Is it Jordie Barrett, I don’t know because he was very average aswell.
To sum things up, apart from Ardie and Jordan we were shite. Where do we go from here? F knows, but doing the same shit and expecting different results isn’t really working for us right now.
Anyway, enjoy the win Ireland. Well bloody deserved.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
My two cents from being at the game live last night.
Firstly, big congrats to Ireland. Worthy winners and completely outplayed us in all facets.
From an All Blacks perspective, two players really stood out for me and they were Ardie and Jordan.
Jason Pine summed Ardie up perfectly this morning, he’s herculean in the way he goes about his work, he just never fucking stops and was the only forward that consistently tried to get us moving last night. Everyone else, apart from one A Ioane bust and the odd Rettalick surge, were largely ineffective from where I was sitting. Is it time to give him the captaincy and move him to his best position of 7? I certainly think so. Cane looks cooked.
The other player that looked class every time he went near the ball was Will Jordan. Get him to fullback so he can get his hands on the ball more. That finish in the second half was a thing of absolute beauty, Christian Cullen mark 2.
Big black marks for me were Codie Taylor, he’s completely ineffective at this level. Whitelock tried hard but he’s really showing his age and just doesn’t have the grunt that he used to. Sam Cane was just disappointing, and being pulled really sums up his game atm, is it time to move on? Smith and Beauden looked like they had just begun their careers, absolutely no innovation from that pair last night, bloody disappointing. Is it time for Mo’unga to take the reigns? I think so.
And the irony, oh the irony of there being no one in NZ to get us over the bloody gain line. Havili definitely wasn’t the answer last night. Is it Jordie Barrett, I don’t know because he was very average aswell.
To sum things up, apart from Ardie and Jordan we were shite. Where do we go from here? F knows, but doing the same shit and expecting different results isn’t really working for us right now.
Anyway, enjoy the win Ireland. Well bloody deserved.
More questions than answers right now
