All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 Do you really think that one of those tests can demonstrate that a guy who had a head knock, was visibly shaken, and then failed the initial test, has avoided a brain injury because his team reported he was fine on tests later in the week? Better his brain than mine.
...a bloke with a history of head knocks...
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Machpants It seems extremely irresponsible.
Actually I don't think it irresponsible if he didn't have concussion, which it seems he didn't, hell even as AB supporter I think Ireland would have appeared to done evryting to WR protocols, and can understand them as often a Dr can't make a definitive call on Concussion in 15 minutes! Take Sam W showed his symptoms next day. And here are how protocols are done ;
The HIA is World Rugby’s three-step process to identifying a concussion.The in-game HIA 1 identifies a suspected concussion, which leads to a player being removed from a game.
But a failed HIA 1 is only officially recognised as a concussion if a player fails a more substantive HIA 2 after the match and the HIA 3, which takes place between 36-48 hours later.
World Rugby issue statement on Johnny Sexton and HIA call
World Rugby has warned against “irresponsible” remote head-injury diagnosis in defending its Head Injury Assessment (HIA) protocols.
I thought this was an interesting point of view;
"Safety group Progressive Rugby insists, however, that any failure of HIA1 should lead medics to treat the player’s future participation with “extreme caution”. “Elite players who fail an in-game HIA1 have, by definition, displayed cognitive dysfunction requiring their removal,” said a Progressive Rugby spokesperson. “In our view, this is sufficient evidence, regardless of subsequent testing, to exercise extreme caution for the good of both their short and long-term health.I think a history of head knocks, a failure of the HIA1 and his age should err on the side of caution. But since they rely on Sexton so much, they won't.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Machpants It seems extremely irresponsible.
Actually I don't think it irresponsible if he didn't have concussion, which it seems he didn't, hell even as AB supporter I think Ireland would have appeared to done evryting to WR protocols, and can understand them as often a Dr can't make a definitive call on Concussion in 15 minutes! Take Sam W showed his symptoms next day. And here are how protocols are done ;
The HIA is World Rugby’s three-step process to identifying a concussion.The in-game HIA 1 identifies a suspected concussion, which leads to a player being removed from a game.
But a failed HIA 1 is only officially recognised as a concussion if a player fails a more substantive HIA 2 after the match and the HIA 3, which takes place between 36-48 hours later.
World Rugby issue statement on Johnny Sexton and HIA call
World Rugby has warned against “irresponsible” remote head-injury diagnosis in defending its Head Injury Assessment (HIA) protocols.
I thought this was an interesting point of view;
"Safety group Progressive Rugby insists, however, that any failure of HIA1 should lead medics to treat the player’s future participation with “extreme caution”. “Elite players who fail an in-game HIA1 have, by definition, displayed cognitive dysfunction requiring their removal,” said a Progressive Rugby spokesperson. “In our view, this is sufficient evidence, regardless of subsequent testing, to exercise extreme caution for the good of both their short and long-term health.I think a history of head knocks, a failure of the HIA1 and his age should err on the side of caution. But since they rely on Sexton so much, they won't.
thats the whole thing isn't it, play it safe
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Who else likes the look of our bench this week? Plenty of impact with the likes of Jordan, Fakatava, Taukei’aho, Ross and PGS.
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 Do you really think that one of those tests can demonstrate that a guy who had a head knock, was visibly shaken, and then failed the initial test, has avoided a brain injury because his team reported he was fine on tests later in the week? Better his brain than mine.
No what I am saying is protocols say Dr have 15 minutes to decide whether a player is concussed, and that perhaps is not enough ( I not a Dr so don't know) so if they suspect he is concussed he can't play until they know, which to me seems sensible otherwise Drs are under pressure to say, well I can't say he he concussed for sure so he can play. Do you think that is better? Same as Sam W having bo symptoms after game but testing positive next day. Don't get me wrong, I highly agree with the safety measures for HIA etc, but don't make it a final decision during game as it could work the other way.
I will add IF Sexton was concussed I think he should stand down. -
@TheMojoman said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Derm-McCrum said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Time for wild prediction of the week.
Ireland to win by 3.
It’ll be much closer for sure
im going the other way, under the roof, dry and fast track...AB's by 25
Me too but maybe not 25. Closer to 15.
I'd be happy with a good, tight game where Ireland really step up the pressure, but we stay composed and with minimal mistakes like last week.
Being solid under pressure would be huge step forward.
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I wish we had archives from years ago, as I'm sure it was posted here, but I recall listening to an interview with Dr Stephen Kara, the Blues Dr at the time (I'm thinking 7 or 8 years ago, maybe longer?) about HIA and the protocols back then, he talked of the initial cognitive test, and subsequent follow up testing...was interesting listening to it and sounded pretty thorough, but never 100% and you'd like to think they have made alot of progress in diagnosis since then too?
I always think about a super game where Sam Cane called an HIA on himself after a knock that wasnt picked up by anyone, even the cameras IIRC, cant recall if he passed/failed it though.
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@The-Docter just what the Docter ordered
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I wish we had archives from years ago, as I'm sure it was posted here, but I recall listening to an interview with Dr Stephen Kara, the Blues Dr at the time (I'm thinking 7 or 8 years ago, maybe longer?) about HIA and the protocols back then, he talked of the initial cognitive test, and subsequent follow up testing...was interesting listening to it and sounded pretty thorough, but never 100% and you'd like to think they have made alot of progress in diagnosis since then too?
I always think about a super game where Sam Cane called an HIA on himself after a knock that wasnt picked up by anyone, even the cameras IIRC, cant recall if he passed/failed it though.
I remember someone posting this:
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@Stargazer possibly covers it all and more recent, but pretty sure the one I listened to was prior to the Blue Card being introduced.
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@Dan54 My opinion is that anyone who has come off for a head injury should have a stand down period. Without histology from brain samples that reflect damage that has emerged over years, it is very difficult to impossible to assess brain injuries. One of the characteristics of fraud in biotechnology and medical diagnostics is running a test until you get the result you want. Clearing a player to play immediately after they have failed an initial test, then passed a later test is extremely suspect.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@TheMojoman said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
What’s up with Akira? Sore foot or has he been Hansen’d?
Not ideal but given the circumstances the best we have. The Irish are going to hard at our line out and we’ll go hard at their breakdown. Under the roof it will hopefully be a fast game where our small loose trio will hopefully shine.
We have cover on the bench with some big bodies in PGS and Patty so not so worried there. In Patty’s case he may be under done after playing touch rugby in Japan for a season.
AB’s by 10+
Foster said he was pretty much ready to go, but they wanted to get rid of the niggle. Same boat for Nepo and to a lessor extend DH.
Everytime he's talked about 6 he's mentioned Akira and Dalton, so not been Hansen'd just yet. Certainly will have to deliver with SB and Dalton being tried at 6, but that's want we wan; competition within the squad.
Foster's handling of Akira has been way better than Hansen and I assume he's worked closely with Panadol on development.
Yeah, that's one of the only positives for Foster, he's actually given Akira a decent go. I really don't know what Hansen had against Akira
This again?
It was attitude, pure and simple. He didn't show the right attitude to Hansen and he admits himself that he was in a strange place mentally (both cause and effect).
Possibly is was a perception thing but a coach will never pick someone who they think may be lazy, entitled or out of tune with the others in the squad.
The ball was in Akira's court and he worked on that and came back into the fold.
Some blame may be in Hansen's court for holding a bit of a grudge if he felt let down but IMO the situation was similar to the Mains/Lomu oneHaven’t read responses to this yet - but this seems to be discussing 2019. Not 2018 when Akira was outstanding and was overlooked even for Evans, who while I’m stoked for every Magpies AB there was no way he approached Akita’s level that year.
There is no issue with his non selection on form in 2019 but 2018 was just B/S by Hansen- it might be a pointer that he was done as a decent coach by then, which we were to see the next year.
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@FakatavaAllBlack fast track agreed this is The Doctors prescription
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My question is can someone who has not suffered some sort of head knock fail hia1. Like what symptoms did Sexton display to have deemed a fail.
How can someone fail hia1 and not have had a head knock? Seems a paradox to me.
Should it not be better just to automatically stand down a player even if they fail hia1 and pass the other two. Seems a bit strange to me.
Edited because I'm using Like as if I'm a 12 year old girl for fuck sake.
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@chimoaus I’d much rather a system that got players off the field when there was doubt but allowed them to play the next game than one that mandated time out after even a suspected HIA.
At least initially as we all get used to the idea that we can’t be cavalier. Otherwise the incentive is for players (and management) to try stay on.
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@The-Docter indeed Will from Harcourts & Fakatava will be ready to feast in the final 20, well that's what I hope anyway
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 My opinion is that anyone who has come off for a head injury should have a stand down period. Without histology from brain samples that reflect damage that has emerged over years, it is very difficult to impossible to assess brain injuries. One of the characteristics of fraud in biotechnology and medical diagnostics is running a test until you get the result you want. Clearing a player to play immediately after they have failed an initial test, then passed a later test is extremely suspect.
Look mate I not claiming to be a medical person, the point I trying to make is Irish are not doing anything dodgy because thay are playing Sexton. Let's make it clear he was NOT found to have concussion, so I not sure I (with my limited knowledge) can tell them he can't play. The next point I suppose is anyone sent off for a HIA must stand down for 12 days.. I just suspect the Irish medical team would know a fair bit more than me on whether there any risk or not, as they have you know probably examined him?
I will also add if any of medical staff or Dr suspect he has had a concussion, then I would be critical of them. -
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I will also add if any of medical staff or Dr suspect he has had a concussion, then I would be critical of them.
If you're even vaguely interested in this subject, I'd suggest reading the excellent book 'League of Denial'
Has more detail on doctors and how they treated concussion up to a few years ago. After reading it, I grapple with the ethics of even playing contact sports - it's kinda terrifying what it does to brains (and bodies for that matter).
No question that Ireland have followed the rules as written. The question really is whether the rules are adequate - seeing a bloke iwth a history of head knocks take a head knock and go off the field, but then be determined to be miraculously OK is ... interesting.
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Being optimistic, or pessimistic, depending on one's point of view...
Is it possible that:- Sexton 'simulated' some symptoms on the field at the time, in order to try and milk a card (unheard of for that fluffybunny, I know - but it was my cynical impression at the time)
- But, unluckily for him, did so too well, such that the game Doctor insisted he fail "HIA 1" - and stay off for the rest of the game
- And then, his team know perfectly well what happened - and therefore cleared him to play this week
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I will also add if any of medical staff or Dr suspect he has had a concussion, then I would be critical of them.
If you're even vaguely interested in this subject, I'd suggest reading the excellent book 'League of Denial'
Has more detail on doctors and how they treated concussion up to a few years ago. After reading it, I grapple with the ethics of even playing contact sports - it's kinda terrifying what it does to brains (and bodies for that matter).
No question that Ireland have followed the rules as written. The question really is whether the rules are adequate - seeing a bloke iwth a history of head knocks take a head knock and go off the field, but then be determined to be miraculously OK is ... interesting.
I will be honest, I wonder if we starting to see the end of contact sports as such, but also not sure I happy with it, as I have already seen in cases where there is suggestions that there won't be heading in soccer etc. Although I (or try to)understand the points of view of all, where do we say safety is everything and sport can't be premitted. If we did actually stop contact sports being played, and I suppose we have to include anything that incudes head knock risks, which is virtually every sport,, I know it won't affect me as I will be dead in 20 years or so anyway, by the time it happens, do we then have to find what else we have to do to stop dementia etc, as my mum and mother in law who never played contact sport etc still died from the horrible disease. My mum rode horse as a young girl/woman and so could of shaken her brain etc there,so do we stop horse riding etc etc? But I suggest we have to have a real caution, but until we actually know more I not sure what answer is. And that is no way downplaying your opinion or thoughts on it, just trying to explain (not very well I know) mine.
But perhaps we need an absolute sterile world to live in, where we take no risks?
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