Super Rugby 2022
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@Frye I think NZ rugby would be able to garner a good comp outside of SR. It will get viewers and supporters if the teams are identifiable, but the reality is we won’t be able to hold on to top players for long because it won’t generate the sort of revenue needed and we will need our own Giteau rules to ensure AB quality.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Frye I think NZ rugby would be able to garner a good comp outside of SR. It will get viewers and supporters if the teams are identifiable, but the reality is we won’t be able to hold on to top players for long because it won’t generate the sort of revenue needed and we will need our own Giteau rules to ensure AB quality.
I didn't suggest we should go it alone.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Frye I think NZ rugby would be able to garner a good comp outside of SR. It will get viewers and supporters if the teams are identifiable, but the reality is we won’t be able to hold on to top players for long because it won’t generate the sort of revenue needed and we will need our own Giteau rules to ensure AB quality.
the NRL has a cap of $9.4M for each club, for 30 players.
So we're gonna need a bigger broadcast deal just to pay the wage bill for 10 teams.
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@Derpus said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial this kind of thinking is what got us here in the first place.
Nah. I think the slow demise of Super Rugby can be easily traced to both SA and Aus stretching themselves too far.
It’s fair to say that NZ maybe should have only ever had four teams to start but it was the addition of weak teams from elsewhere that stuffed the standard format which meant we had to create even more to make groups and fit it all in.
What I am suggesting brings real money and doesn’t lock players to franchises of their own country unless they want. Less weakness and more money. -
@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
So who's paying to watch this internal comp? Are we expecting international supporters to pop up like EPL?
IMO if you don't have some skin in the game you dont bother tuning in. You just follow the results out of interest at best.I don't know mate, I watch Heinekin cup etc.
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
So who's paying to watch this internal comp? Are we expecting international supporters to pop up like EPL?
IMO if you don't have some skin in the game you dont bother tuning in. You just follow the results out of interest at best.I don't know mate, I watch Heinekin cup etc.
There’s always a small percentage like yourself. I have an American friend that lives in Germany and watches some Super.
It’s getting numbers on board that count and the bigger the population the more numbers from small percentages.
Don’t forget that the US are hosting a RWC and they will want to build quickly. If we don’t join in with them the amount of poaching and inducement from them will be huge. Let’s use it to our advantage. -
Only speaking from myself, but
- I'll watch most NZ teams vs Aus teams games.
- I barely watched NZ vs SA team games.
- I think I watched the Sunwolves once in total
- I watched the Jaguars in the finals only.
Why?
Because I fucking love supporting a team that beats Australia teams & I hate supporting a team that loses to an Australian team. Outside test level, couldn't care less about Bok, Japan, Argentinian teams.
Money is no substitute for passion, no matter how much broadcasters think it is.
That's why NZRU needs ARU.
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@Crucial our rugby is on at a good time for South Africa and Europe viewers.
I think your talking like the current model is successful. Super rugby viewers are dropping year on year. Age is older. The market doesn't like the product. Moving it to Japan USA is band aid solutions imo. That will fade also.
I think ultimately, long term, an nz only comp would not be a tier 1 comp, arguably with the Oz and worse nz teams super rugby is not right now. But if you have fan buy in Ala South American football it would still be very sustainable. Maybe elite all blacks have to go over seas.
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@muddyriver said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial nah I think the semi global comps are doomed. No one cares.
All the best leagues in the world are local.
Is there a good semi/ global league anywhere In team sport?
I said this during covid and still stand buy it. Full npc with Heineken cup to add flavour.
Test tours play npc teams for more pizazz.
Have you heard of the UEFA Champions League?
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@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2022:
A single comp with ~10 sides is probably the sweet spot
Agreed.
The problem is the shit fight that would occur to get to 10.
That's only if it's a fixed 10 teams. I don't know if having promotion / relegation is feasible, but if it the competition is based on the provinces, then surely it has to be a promotion / relegation comp. If it's adding new franchises to the existing SR ones, then we are taking something different
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@muddyriver said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial our rugby is on at a good time for South Africa and Europe viewers.
Really?
I think your talking like the current model is successful. Super rugby viewers are dropping year on year. Age is older. The market doesn't like the product. Moving it to Japan USA is band aid solutions imo. That will fade also.
The opposite. I know our current product has run its course. Re-inventing the NPC is short sighted and insular. Unless we could attract overseas players in the talent would also either be spread far too thin for quality or would congregate in a couple of teams. What an awesome product that wouldn’t be.
I think ultimately, long term, an nz only comp would not be a tier 1 comp, arguably with the Oz and worse nz teams super rugby is not right now. But if you have fan buy in Ala South American football it would still be very sustainable. Maybe elite all blacks have to go over seas.
We need way more than sustainable. We need to be stronger and have better resources.
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You know the thing that amuses me a little. We keep hearing how the final of Super AU was a stunning success a couple of years back , and it was, but if anyone cares to recall the viewing figures for the rest of that year was not very bloody good, I think the major semi was good, but then all the next best figures were actually cross over matches. I know it's wonderful to build a comp on the viewing of one or two games, but by geez they would need to be big money pullers to pay for another 3-5 teams that Hamish is saying RA will come up with. Even look at this year, what were the Tahs biggest crowds? Against a couple of kiwi teams. What were Rebels crowds like? Pretty poor , and that will be standard of game (at most) if Aus rugby is diluted by adding all these extra teams, because I doubt there will be too many good teams when spread between 8-10 teams.
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2022:
You know the thing that amuses me a little. We keep hearing how the final of Super AU was a stunning success a couple of years back , and it was, but if anyone cares to recall the viewing figures for the rest of that year was not very bloody good, I think the major semi was good, but then all the next best figures were actually cross over matches. I know it's wonderful to build a comp on the viewing of one or two games, but by geez they would need to be big money pullers to pay for another 3-5 teams that Hamish is saying RA will come up with. Even look at this year, what were the Tahs biggest crowds? Against a couple of kiwi teams. What were Rebels crowds like? Pretty poor , and that will be standard of game (at most) if Aus rugby is diluted by adding all these extra teams, because I doubt there will be too many good teams when spread between 8-10 teams.
Tahs have dropped to playing at a local club ground FFS.
Look, Oz can do whatever the fuck they like. My concern is that we need to be in control of our destiny.
We have a window of opportunity with the Silverlake money coming in before Oz get a RWC windfall (to blow again) and the US start dishing out money to boost their setup before their own RWC.
I hope we don't waste the opportunity. -
Aust teams did a lot better this year. But are they going to win 2023. Very unlikely. Even in NZ it has become unbalanced now with the Crusaders winning year after boring year. The Blues improving but failing badly in the final. And the Hurricanes and Highlanders slipping back.
The NZ salary model will likley make things worse in the future. Where teams who have the ABs are at a massive advanatage. Good non ABs will just leave. Quality young players will move to the stronger teams. Add in Aust having too many teams My view is SRP will fail unless chnages are made and NZ rugby don't have the quality of leaders necessary to make them.
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@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
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@Winger said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
Except to change other factors. Either allow players to play anywhere in Super and still be eligible for national sides or look for different partners. I think it needs to be both.
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@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
Either allow players to play anywhere in Super and still be eligible for national sides
I've long been a fan of allowing this, is quite different to playing in a totally different comp.
I expect if NZ really was the evil empire, they could have picked up someone from MP, same comp, many are NZ born.
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@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Winger said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
Except to change other factors. Either allow players to play anywhere in Super and still be eligible for national sides or look for different partners. I think it needs to be both.
agreed, this would have been good when we had the sunwolves, let some of those guys get some japanese money
