All Blacks 2022
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
Surely Robertson applied.
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
Razor was clearly always going to be a better option than him though.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select a such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
You want to back that up?
Stop changing the story. You jump from 'we need good rugby people that know what they are doing' to 'a good rugby person with masses of experience must be a muppet because he didn't choose someone I agree with'
Look we have just about all had reservations about Foster for years before you came on board (you should have seen it when he was coaching the Chiefs) but try and add some interesting observations instead of constantly trying to tell everyone the basics of rugby and doing facile finger pointing.
Those on the selection boards would have more rugby knowledge than any of us here. We are just sideline punters. Does that mean that things always work out on their decisions? No, because it is sport.
Does it mean they are muppets? No.
By all means add in your opinion, it's what we are all here for, just try and get past the cliches.
Oh, and by the way, pointing out that Foster is fat has been done already too.
> I don't really rate Henry as having that much rugby nous... if he did he wouldn't have selected an incompetent Foster over Robertson.Wow, that really amazes me. His coaching pedigree is remarkable, his ability to develop players and teams, his record speaks for himself. He's pretty much done everything in coaching. I am astonished you'd throw that out there.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
Surely Robertson applied.
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
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@nzzp yeah, apparently learning from mistakes, see 2007, and winning one RWC and leaving the core of a team that won the next one...doesn't mean much
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@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
Nah, the Crusaders had a full-strength team against the Lions, as did the Blues.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
Nah, the Crusaders had a full-strength team against the Lions, as did the Blues.
No Crotty or Read so not 100% full strength
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
Nah, the Crusaders had a full-strength team against the Lions, as did the Blues.
shout out to my boy SBW who scored a ridiculous try, followed by Ihaia West running amok to burgle a win against those Lions. One of the few, rare highlights at EP for a long time, but we'll take it.
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jeez, even a Highlanders team without Smith and Smith and STARTING BUCKMAN at 15 managed to beat the Lions
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select a such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
You want to back that up?
Stop changing the story. You jump from 'we need good rugby people that know what they are doing' to 'a good rugby person with masses of experience must be a muppet because he didn't choose someone I agree with'
Look we have just about all had reservations about Foster for years before you came on board (you should have seen it when he was coaching the Chiefs) but try and add some interesting observations instead of constantly trying to tell everyone the basics of rugby and doing facile finger pointing.
Those on the selection boards would have more rugby knowledge than any of us here. We are just sideline punters. Does that mean that things always work out on their decisions? No, because it is sport.
Does it mean they are muppets? No.
By all means add in your opinion, it's what we are all here for, just try and get past the cliches.
Oh, and by the way, pointing out that Foster is fat has been done already too.I don't really rate Henry as having that much rugby nous... if he did he wouldn't have selected an incompetent Foster over Robertson.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
jeez, even a Highlanders team without Smith and Smith and STARTING BUCKMAN at 15 managed to beat the Lions
Who are they
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial i dont really rate foster but thats a good call
Foster hasn't won me over either but some of the stuff on here verges on stupid.
I would hope that with the amount of talking we have had about this, the level rises a bit higher than that of a blowhard at the pub espousing their great knowledge to those assembled around the leaner.
Yeah, I can be as negative as any on here, especially when deserved (Hammettuer, Canes treatment of Magpies), but even I can't handle AB discussions on the Fern much these days due to the constant negativity.
I'm no fan of Foster, would rather Rennie, Robertson, anyone else really, but I don't think NZ rugby is in the doldrums as much as it's constantly made out here. The NH have turned into unstoppable beasts, winning against Oz no longer counts, winning against the Boks barely counts, all our players are too small (except Akira, he's too fat) ... we may as well all give up and support soccer.
But the reality is that every few years we come up against a style of play that flummoxes us for a while (it happened before both our RWC wins in the 2000s) but eventually we figure it out (and then eventually we overthink in it like against England in the RWC - but we're still a few steps away from that).
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@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
Surely Robertson applied.
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
I think a better argument is tha the Crusaders did play a test team and the others the B team.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
Surely Robertson applied.
He did. And that's who I wanted selected. However, Razor had question marks as well - his Crusaders looked as clueless as Foster's ABs when they came up against the British & Irish Lions in 2017.
In saying that He did not have a lot of Ab's and NZ Maori who were unavailable for that game and had to rope in some payers outside the squad at that time to put a team on the park.
I think a better argument is tha the Crusaders did play a test team and the others the B team.
That too.
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Don't we have a Fozzie thread somewhere?
Can we get this one back to discussing the 2022 ABs?After all the players are the ones that form the backbone here. Who do we think will no longer make the cut? Who will be held on to while someone is is given experience? Who will def be there?
The AB website lists 42! players as current squad (because of the messy end of the year). 26 forwards and 16 backs.
Here's the forwards as a starter.
Props
At Risk
Lomax
Ta'avao
de Groot
Bower
Moody
Tu'inukuafe
Laulala
TuungafasiI don't see any of these players as being must haves. This area of selection is(and should be) wide open. There are a few guys playing very well at the moment that could be the future.
Hooker
At Risk
AumuaWill be kept on
Taylor
ColesDefinite
Tuakei'ahoThe same four will probably stay.
Locks
Will be kept on
Whitelock
Retallick
S Barrett
Vai'i
LordGone
TuipulotuI don't see any changes here. I think they have invested in some new boys and will stick with them. Maybe add one more in to the squad if there is room through injury during the year.
Loose Forwards
At Risk
Blackadder
Frizell
JacobsenWill be kept on
Ioane
SotutuDefinite
Cane
Savea
PapaliiThree opensiders are the only must haves here. You could actually make a decent back three out of them.
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Don't we have a Fozzie thread somewhere?
Can we get this one back to discussing the 2022 ABs?Yes
All off topic posts will get deleted after this one. It's the same 3-4 posters that want every thread to be about one topic. It crowds out the good conversation
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 he looked like a test player in 2020 when he dominated all his matchups as a starter playing centre, and then obviously made the All Blacks on the back of that form.
Then for some odd reason Holland decided to drop him the following year for Proctor and now we've only really seen PUJ in small doses. Frustrating really, he must have slept with Holland's daughter or something.
Or maybe training or something left a bit to be desired, he hasn't really stamped his authority at NPC level just yet. I wonder if it a fitness thing? Not sure, but he certainly not getting as much game time as I thought he would, and selecting team has a lot of variables why someone makes or doesn't make team. I think his brother at the Clan actually looking a better player this season, but that could be for any reason ie confidnce etc etc.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Don't we have a Fozzie thread somewhere?
Can we get this one back to discussing the 2022 ABs?After all the players are the ones that form the backbone here. Who do we think will no longer make the cut? Who will be held on to while someone is is given experience? Who will def be there?
The AB website lists 42! players as current squad (because of the messy end of the year). 26 forwards and 16 backs.
Here's the forwards as a starter.
Props
At Risk
Lomax
Ta'avao
de Groot
Bower
Moody
Tu'inukuafe
Laulala
TuungafasiI don't see any of these players as being must haves. This area of selection is(and should be) wide open. There are a few guys playing very well at the moment that could be the future.
Hooker
At Risk
AumuaWill be kept on
Taylor
ColesDefinite
Tuakei'ahoThe same four will probably stay.
Locks
Will be kept on
Whitelock
Retallick
S Barrett
Vai'i
LordGone
TuipulotuI don't see any changes here. I think they have invested in some new boys and will stick with them. Maybe add one more in to the squad if there is room through injury during the year.
Loose Forwards
At Risk
Blackadder
Frizell
JacobsenWill be kept on
Ioane
SotutuDefinite
Cane
Savea
PapaliiThree opensiders are the only must haves here. You could actually make a decent back three out of them.
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues.I don't see Sotutu. as a keeper.
Props, they will keep a couple of those you listed at least and maybe add some youth.
A year out from the WC its tough trying to get young props up to top Test match standard, it is a massive jump up from SR to Test rugby especially for the props.
Stuff
