All Blacks 2022
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.
That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.
you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else
Can't say I agree. Ardie has consistently been the starting 8. Cane is captain and 7 except when injured in which case Papali'i is 7 (except when injured). 2020 Goodhue played 12. 2021 Havili played 12.
Frizell got almost all of 2020 at 6, in 2021 Akira played 6 for all 3 Bledisloes and both Bok games. The reason they rotated blindside on the end of year tour is frankly Akira's Bledisloe form did not translate to both Bok games - the reality is there is no answer at 6 right now.
I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.
Still not convinced about PUJ, I keen on him because he a Canes player, but haven't seen a lot to make me think he a test player.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.
Given it was a Bledisloe at Eden Park, not sure we should take much from that.
-
@dan54 he looked like a test player in 2020 when he dominated all his matchups as a starter playing centre, and then obviously made the All Blacks on the back of that form.
Then for some odd reason Holland decided to drop him the following year for Proctor and now we've only really seen PUJ in small doses. Frustrating really, he must have slept with Holland's daughter or something.
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...
ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13.
Havili was really good to start, but then turned to custard. It's a pity - can see a role for him as a playmaking 12, but you couldn't be confident he'll get there based on teh second half of 22
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...
ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13.
Havili was really good to start, but then turned to custard. It's a pity - can see a role for him as a playmaking 12, but you couldn't be confident he'll get there based on teh second half of 22
and who did we play first? shit teams
Did he even get to play against a Kerevi-led Wallaby midfield?
-
@mariner4life Kerevi did play the dead rubber Bledisloe 3 in Perth last year but that was with Lolesio at 10. ABs never played against Quade 10 / Kerevi 12 (who beat Boks twice)
-
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
-
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious! -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
-
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
-
@crucial i dont really rate foster but thats a good call
-
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Would have been much better to have a TSF poll and we could have picked the successful candidate
-
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial i dont really rate foster but thats a good call
Foster hasn't won me over either but some of the stuff on here verges on stupid.
I would hope that with the amount of talking we have had about this, the level rises a bit higher than that of a blowhard at the pub espousing their great knowledge to those assembled around the leaner.
-
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
The same Ted that got bundled out at quarter final stage?
-
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
-
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select a such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
You want to back that up?
Stop changing the story. You jump from 'we need good rugby people that know what they are doing' to 'a good rugby person with masses of experience must be a muppet because he didn't choose someone I agree with'
Look we have just about all had reservations about Foster for years before you came on board (you should have seen it when he was coaching the Chiefs) but try and add some interesting observations instead of constantly trying to tell everyone the basics of rugby and doing facile finger pointing.
Those on the selection boards would have more rugby knowledge than any of us here. We are just sideline punters. Does that mean that things always work out on their decisions? No, because it is sport.
Does it mean they are muppets? No.
By all means add in your opinion, it's what we are all here for, just try and get past the cliches.
Oh, and by the way, pointing out that Foster is fat has been done already too. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select a such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
You want to back that up?
Stop changing the story. You jump from 'we need good rugby people that know what they are doing' to 'a good rugby person with masses of experience must be a muppet because he didn't choose someone I agree with'
Look we have just about all had reservations about Foster for years before you came on board (you should have seen it when he was coaching the Chiefs) but try and add some interesting observations instead of constantly trying to tell everyone the basics of rugby and doing facile finger pointing.
Those on the selection boards would have more rugby knowledge than any of us here. We are just sideline punters. Does that mean that things always work out on their decisions? No, because it is sport.
Does it mean they are muppets? No.
By all means add in your opinion, it's what we are all here for, just try and get past the cliches.
Oh, and by the way, pointing out that Foster is fat has been done already too.yeah, i did feel it wasnt that long ago some of us we're lamenting fozzie as coach but...someone....was saying it was all on the players to just change things up and play what was in front of them, not the coaches problem
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/128081388/the-alarming-trend-stalling-new-zealand-rugby
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
i think @Crucial might be suggesting that it might be slightly arrogant to think no bodies like us know something that sir graham henry doesn't....if anything its probably more likely he knows something we dont
-
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.My point is to always get decent numbers to the breakdown, have at least 3 players, backs or forwards charging in on the shoulder of the ball carrier smashing their defenders out the way, also set up forward pods close to the ball carrier when possible.
All of a sudden a class team like the ABs don't become pretty average for nothing... need to get rid of that Keystone Cop coaching staff, select a coaching staff that actually know what they're doing, get back to playing with common sense in our forward & back play & we will be the team to beat again.
Just think of the salaries NZR could have saved if only they came here first.
It's so blinking obvious!Need to fire all those idiots on the NZRB & select good rugby people on the board that have the ability to select a good coaching staff etc.
You mean like Sir Graham Henry? That idiot knows nothing about winning world cups. How dare he be on a panel that chose Foster!
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select a such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
You want to back that up?
Stop changing the story. You jump from 'we need good rugby people that know what they are doing' to 'a good rugby person with masses of experience must be a muppet because he didn't choose someone I agree with'
Look we have just about all had reservations about Foster for years before you came on board (you should have seen it when he was coaching the Chiefs) but try and add some interesting observations instead of constantly trying to tell everyone the basics of rugby and doing facile finger pointing.
Those on the selection boards would have more rugby knowledge than any of us here. We are just sideline punters. Does that mean that things always work out on their decisions? No, because it is sport.
Does it mean they are muppets? No.
By all means add in your opinion, it's what we are all here for, just try and get past the cliches.
Oh, and by the way, pointing out that Foster is fat has been done already too.I don't really rate Henry as having that much rugby nous... if he did he wouldn't have selected an incompetent Foster over Robertson.
-
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Henry was the head of the selection panel, so if he's that great why did he select such an absolute muppet like Foster as head coach ? ...in fact a few weeks after Foster was appointed Henry was on the tv sports news saying I think we made the wrong choice.
I believe Henry was in the press in support of Rennie who never applied for the role - but that's not on Henry - he was only able to select based on who applied.
Surely Robertson applied.
Stuff
