All Blacks 2022
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke woudl Jordan really be in contention for a World XV though? Because that's where we started the discussion
Jordon would easily be in contention for a World XV... he's clearly a x-factor player, has pace to burn, reads situations really well, can create opportunities out of basically nothing.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers. -
@crucial kind of agree...but i think there is more too it
Yes, if we'd really nailed down our pods and the quick clean then 100%...but we havent...so in a situation we're we just havent nailed down the timing for the quick clean and recycle...then we should throw in some more numbers for a more traditional clean and castle.
slow but secure ball is still better than no ball...which is what i see far too often, a little half break where the ball carrier gets isolated or a mistimed clean leaving the ball exposed. The old adage you have to earn the right, no point having a loosie or hooker out on the wing when their size could be better used in the ruck
think someone said earlier in the thread...we try and play better than we actually are
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Reckon NZ has the players to beat anyone. But it won't matter who the ABs put on the field unless the playing strategy/style changes. What was good in 2015 is now way past its sell-by date.
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.
That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.
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Lots of talk about the skills and basics in the AB's. For me, it isn't a lack of basic skills, it's that the basics go to pieces under pressure. Lost count of how many times we have started to claw our way back into a game and then there's a stupid knock-on, kick or brain-fart penalty which gifts momentum to the other team.
It's a head-space/leadership thing which is often going wrong.
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@victor-meldrew it's the hangover from our golden era
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
Lots of talk about the skills and basics in the AB's. For me, it isn't a lack of basic skills, it's that the basics go to pieces under pressure. Lost count of how many times we have started to claw our way back into a game and then there's a stupid knock-on, kick or brain-fart penalty which gifts momentum to the other team.
It's a head-space/leadership thing which is often going wrong.
Sure, but when the basics go to pieces also under no pressure, then you have to question the skills.
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@bones Richie used to talk about the red/blue head in regard to the mental game, I know his team had some all time greats in it, but are they putting enough into the mental aspect?
Just because there is no in game pressure, doesn't mean there isn't pressure, clearly we are not dealing with it to execute skills and make decisions in real game situations well enough.
I know Hammet was always criticised when he'd say the team was training well but couldn't replicate it onto the park when it mattered...
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@taniwharugby The red/blue head thing is a Gilbert Enoka thing. Is he still with the team?
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@dice I think he is, but maybe they havent been focusing as much on it, or if they have, there are deeper issues now?
I think the red/blue head is a larger mental thing as I did something very similar for work many years back, so assume he just implemented it or his version.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.
That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.
you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.
That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.
you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else
Can't say I agree. Ardie has consistently been the starting 8. Cane is captain and 7 except when injured in which case Papali'i is 7 (except when injured). 2020 Goodhue played 12. 2021 Havili played 12.
Frizell got almost all of 2020 at 6, in 2021 Akira played 6 for all 3 Bledisloes and both Bok games. The reason they rotated blindside on the end of year tour is frankly Akira's Bledisloe form did not translate to both Bok games - the reality is there is no answer at 6 right now.
I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...
ALB was pretty much nailed on at 13 and Havili at 12. Foster changed that combination when he wanted to give Reiko game time at 13. (as an aside I'm not convinced 13 is ALB's best position). The loosies were pretty stable IIRC with Ardie at 8 and Akira at 6, though 7 swapped about a bit as Cane was injured.
Not saying Foster has his combinations right, but at least he's trying to build them and tweak them rather than wholesale changes week by week.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
Been saying pretty much the same since 2016. One positive is that Foster is at least trying to build combinations and giving players time to settle in.
That said, I'm not sure Havili is the the answer at 12. I'd expect Foster to give him a few games to see if he can kick on and if not, go for someone like TUJ or QT.
you and i see very different things, i always feel he chops and changes combos (especially loosies and midfield) too often...not letting people settle, people in for one game...play ok...and then out, unless you are amazing straight off the bat he'll try someone else
Can't say I agree. Ardie has consistently been the starting 8. Cane is captain and 7 except when injured in which case Papali'i is 7 (except when injured). 2020 Goodhue played 12. 2021 Havili played 12.
Frizell got almost all of 2020 at 6, in 2021 Akira played 6 for all 3 Bledisloes and both Bok games. The reason they rotated blindside on the end of year tour is frankly Akira's Bledisloe form did not translate to both Bok games - the reality is there is no answer at 6 right now.
I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.
Still not convinced about PUJ, I keen on him because he a Canes player, but haven't seen a lot to make me think he a test player.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
I can see your point at 13 - to me the most frustrating piece there is not taking a punt on PUJ who looked sharp of the bench Bledisloe 2 Eden Park 2020.
Given it was a Bledisloe at Eden Park, not sure we should take much from that.
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