All Blacks 2022
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@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:
I liked what I saw of Justin Sangster and Taine Plumtree. They won't be ABs in a near future but they will surely be in contention post RWC.
Yeah, both of them have looked very impressive.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.Man, you should replace Fozzie.
"Go out there and do the basics well boys"
If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.
Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards
We still have plenty of top backs to pick from though.
We have some decent backs, but yuo'd struggle to argue many would be getting towards a world XV discussion.
Contendors
Smith
RIoane
ALB (I'm a massive fan, particularly at test level, despite his last season injuries)after that - we're scraping. Maaaybe BB, but he's been out of form and position for a while.
Surley you'd have J.Barrett, Jordan & Reece as well ?
Goosen looks a top winger & shows good composer under pressure at Super rugby level,
we have other excellent backs coming through as well.R.Ioane is better suited to wing.
ALB is a solid player, but a very good organizer in the backline.Jordie, yep, fair. But Jordan and Reece are struggling to be first pick for teh ABs, let alone a world XV. They're talented, but in the mix with other international wingers
Really rate Jordan, he'd be the first winger I'd pick in the ABs starting team, then on the other wing we could select either Reece or R.Ioane with JB at the back, that looks a lethal back 3... lets not forget we have fuckwit head & assistant coaches so wouldn't go too much by some of their selections.
We have good depth coming through in the midfield, both Umaga-Jensen brothers look class, have only seen O'Sullivan play a bit, but looks to have good skills & composure too.
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@nzbloke woudl Jordan really be in contention for a World XV though? Because that's where we started the discussion
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke woudl Jordan really be in contention for a World XV though? Because that's where we started the discussion
Didn't he score 15 tries in tests last year. Even if we remove the Tongan game that's still 10 tries. Did any other wingers score many tries? I assume with that record he would be in contention?
Also, a quick Google suggest he made a lot of different best XVs of 2021 - including from a few unfriendly to NZ publications.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Poor pod structure combined with static players. Supporting players are in line with the ball carrier who starts from standing still and goes nowhere, support overruns or at the very least has to double back and/or has no momentum or stability.
Edit: oh and throw in awful option taking with abysmal handling, hey presto!
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What's concerning me is our rate of basic errors has gone up - the quality of cleaning, the skill level with the ball, missing touch with kicks. poor box kicking, etc. It's the basics; winning lineout ball, kickoffs in the right place, lifters ready, getting the right players carrying around rucks, etc. So I don't think we are good at the basics at the moment.
Then add to that losing the possession battle because of the above and not dominating in the forwards. We saw the recipe for success in the second half against the French with 2 quick trys. Relying on kicking away possession, spending hours tackling and not having the ball and believing we can win by the odd counter attack needs to change.
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Feels a bit early but he certainly was very impactful around the field. His inside pass to set up the try was a highlight for me.
Ollie Norris may be the answer to the All Blacks' propping woes
If the All Blacks are still on the quest to reinvigorate their front row stocks with ball-playing props then Ollie Norris' performance against Moana Pasifika on Saturday night should have turned a few heads.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
Feels a bit early but he certainly was very impactful around the field. His inside pass to set up the try was a highlight for me.
Ollie Norris may be the answer to the All Blacks' propping woes
If the All Blacks are still on the quest to reinvigorate their front row stocks with ball-playing props then Ollie Norris' performance against Moana Pasifika on Saturday night should have turned a few heads.
AS you say gt, a bit early , but he has been pretty impressive.
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There definitely needs to be a refresh amongst the props. The time is up for Laulala and Tu’inukuafe, and there are questions about the quality of Bower and Ta'avao. Ireland seems to be selecting their props for their ability around the park as their scrum has been very average, particularly on the LH side. Now is as good a time as any to introduce some young props who can provide that much-needed ball-carrying.
As to Norris, he'll likely be back on the bench when Ross returns.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke woudl Jordan really be in contention for a World XV though? Because that's where we started the discussion
Jordon would easily be in contention for a World XV... he's clearly a x-factor player, has pace to burn, reads situations really well, can create opportunities out of basically nothing.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers. -
@crucial kind of agree...but i think there is more too it
Yes, if we'd really nailed down our pods and the quick clean then 100%...but we havent...so in a situation we're we just havent nailed down the timing for the quick clean and recycle...then we should throw in some more numbers for a more traditional clean and castle.
slow but secure ball is still better than no ball...which is what i see far too often, a little half break where the ball carrier gets isolated or a mistimed clean leaving the ball exposed. The old adage you have to earn the right, no point having a loosie or hooker out on the wing when their size could be better used in the ruck
think someone said earlier in the thread...we try and play better than we actually are
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Reckon NZ has the players to beat anyone. But it won't matter who the ABs put on the field unless the playing strategy/style changes. What was good in 2015 is now way past its sell-by date.
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