All Blacks 2021
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
you mean your 2009 goalposts?! The ones you brought into the conversation?!
No. After you criticised him for saying he had the coaching group he wanted yet lost 2 games, I pointed out that the coaching team in 2009 had a much, much worse loss record than Foster and also mentioned we had been close to losing against Ireland & Argentina long before Foster.
So you did bring 2009 into it then.
Actually I said he apparently had an ideal coaching team, yet he still lost important games, the implication being it can't have been ideal.
Then you replied the 2009 team lost but I don't see a quote from you from the 2009 head coach that he thought his team was "ideal" or proof he chose them. So your whole point is moot and besides I don't care, the 2009 coach is not the 2022 AB coach who will also be the next RWC coach. So yes you were changing the goalposts.It's a pretty fair argument to say the the nature of the losses were uniquely bad under Foster (which can be debated as I pointed out). But it's a different argument from the one you used earlier - but that's cool as it's obviously in the best traditions of the Fern....
Not a different argument given Foster said he had the ideal coaching team.
My point is fairly simple, either Foster believes his team is ideal or it isn't.
If it is ideal he should ideally win against Ireland and Argentina. If that is impossible he should not lose so badly either unless that is the best the ABs could be.
Therefore either his judgement is wrong or our record really is ideal (it is as good as it gets i.e. the ABs can't perform any better, given such ideal coaches).And if he claims they are his ideal team then either he is responsible for choosing the assistant head coaches OR he must believe he would have chosen them regardless as they are apparently "ideal".
Ian Foster will be his own man as All Blacks head coach
After spending eight years as assistant to Steve Hansen, New Zealand head coach Ian Foster knows he must be his own man.
"Now it's time for you to see me in a new light and that's up to me to show you that I'm innovative, I've got a sense of direction of where I want this team to go, and I'm extremely passionate about adding a new touch to it and to really grow and get some mana back on the field, which we feel we might have lost."And Foster promised to show himself in a new light
--Innovation
--Sense of direction
--New touch
--Mana back on the fieldHow can he do all that if he does not pick the assistants? Is he lying to us?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/118112502/ian-foster-a-done-deal-tvnz-sources-report"It's been eight years with the All Blacks, I've learned a lot. But I need to take my own ideas," Foster said.I am using his words and focusing on what he has promised and claimed. I don't need to go back to 2009 or compare to other coaches. So I don't agree that it is me who is trying to change the goalposts.
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it. -
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
Foster?
Yeah, but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach--what would he have seen from overseas and in retirement that the other selectors don't?
Ok he is working with the Blues but not sure what more inside info is required from there..https://www.allblacks.com/news/joe-schmidt-to-join-all-blacks-as-independent-selector/
“Joe will bring a wealth of New Zealand and international experience into the role, so we are delighted to have him join us. He will work closely with me and ‘Plums’ on selections but his insights will be valuable in other areas as well, so we look forward to having him join us.”Hmm sounds to me that the ideal coaching team has just been augmented .. I wonder who requested Joe join, Ian Foster or NZ Rugby?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
Foster?
Yeah, but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach--what would he have seen from overseas and in retirement that the other selectors don't?
Ok he is working with the Blues but not sure what more inside info is required from there..https://www.allblacks.com/news/joe-schmidt-to-join-all-blacks-as-independent-selector/
“Joe will bring a wealth of New Zealand and international experience into the role, so we are delighted to have him join us. He will work closely with me and ‘Plums’ on selections but his insights will be valuable in other areas as well, so we look forward to having him join us.”Hmm sounds to me that the ideal coaching team has just been augmented .. I wonder who requested Joe join, Ian Foster or NZ Rugby?
Well as Foster tried to get him as a selector when he got the job, I suspect it him. Fox wanted to get out after 2019, and because Schmidt wasn't ready to get into it they talked Foxy into staying on, I taking it until him or someone they wanted was available.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach
NZbloke said :
Schmidt will definitely have a big role to play as an assistant coach... those idiots Foster & Plumtree need all the help they can get. -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
Modern defences don't - the centres are busy shooting up to force the attack back towards the previous ruck or to isolate defenders because to support a tackled player who is behind them is disadvantageous for the attackers.
The way to prevent this is twofold:
- Put the ball into space behind the defenders so you can regather or prevents them shooting up taking your time and space away, or
- Attack around the fringes drawing defenders in, moving forward so you can attack with momentum, width and numerical superiority.
In both instances you need a five-eighth who takes the ball forward preventing defences from drifting. Carter and Cruden did this well.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
isn;t that the issue though...you stick your fastest strike weapons on the wing, if we're not standing deeper to enable to ball time to get to them...how are we using them?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
It's my 18 year attempt to win the broken record of the century award.
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
It's my 18 year attempt to win the broken record of the century award.
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
Wow, that is some rusty drum. I just hope there isn't a Lavea jnr playing at 10 somewhere..
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
If you go back and look Schmidt came into the Blues in 2005 (after Carlos was dropped/rested from the ABs end of year tour 2004) and Carlos started at 10 the first 4 games of 2005. In game 4 the Blues got smashed by 20+ points by the Crusaders and it was after that the Blues went to Lavea - after which the Blues went on a 4 game win streak with Lavea at 10. Whilst Lavea obviously didn't pan out at Super level I think by that stage Carlos was on his way out anyway and had signed to go with Northampton before the season was over.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
....and Lavea quit as Counties coach as well!
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
Modern defences don't - the centres are busy shooting up to force the attack back towards the previous ruck or to isolate defenders because to support a tackled player who is behind them is disadvantageous for the attackers.
The way to prevent this is twofold:
- Put the ball into space behind the defenders so you can regather or prevents them shooting up taking your time and space away, or
- Attack around the fringes drawing defenders in, moving forward so you can attack with momentum, width and numerical superiority.
In both instances you need a five-eighth who takes the ball forward preventing defences from drifting. Carter and Cruden did this well.
Agree, all very good points... but the forwards play a huge part if they can recycle the ball quickly, consistently getting good numbers to clean out through the phases, giving the backs more space & time, as the flat defences will have less time to set their defensive pattern.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
isn;t that the issue though...you stick your fastest strike weapons on the wing, if we're not standing deeper to enable to ball time to get to them...how are we using them?
With all these flat defences reckon the backs should make the most of set piece opportunities... the loosies have to stay attached to the scrum, if you have the feed & you have a solid scrum platform to work from you have a great chance to fire the ball out wide quickly etc, trying to make the most of the back on back situations.
