All Blacks 2021
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
The South African record in SR was quite honestly abysmal. For a country that prides itself on it's rugby prowess, their franchises were terrible and what they achieved was embarrassing.
I agree. Yet they have won as many RWC's as us
You make a strong argument that any connection between coaching success at Super Rugby and Test level is tenuous at best.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
So I understand your point - but I really enjoyed having them in the comp, and will miss them.
That this needs pointing out is testament to some of the recent shit being posted on here (and separate from the fact that they would have been very strong if we had stayed with the original Super 12).
Don't get me wrong, I've been loving it, because January is a bit boring and it has kept me coming back.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not away.
The Saders (mostly) did, but quite a few teams really struggled over there. According to the excellent work of @Duluth here the stats look like this against the four teams that went most of the way through.
Even the Saders had a losing record against one side (Bulls) away and the Landers were running at about 33%. The Blues were the Sharks’ bitches for many years.
Win % of kiwi teams versus SA Teams away
Stormers
Crusaders 54%
Chiefs 50%
Blues 45%
Landers 36%
Canes 30%Bulls
Canes 55%
Landers 50%
Crusaders 43%
Blues 33%
Chiefs 30%Lions
Saders 75%
Canes 64%
Blues 63%
Chiefs 50%
Landers 23%Sharks
Saders 67%
Chiefs 40%
Canes 40%
Landers 30%
Blues 18%Edit: The numbers mostly get worse of you limit it to away games since 2010. For example the Landers versus the Lions away lost the lot, as they did against the Stormers (25% against the Sharks). The Canes also lost the lot (4 games) against the stormers away. Blues lost 4 in a row against the Sharks away. Only the Chiefs and Saders really put up a good fight during that time.
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@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
I'm not arguing that we didn't dominate them here, but that isn't my argument
nor the one made above.Their teams struggled to travel, but we gots lots out of learning to play them there and deal with their conditions.
That was the argument made above and I believe that the stats above show that playing SA teams in SA was a different beast to smashing them here.
Similarly, the All Blacks run 48% against the Springboks away and 71% at home.
Edit: BTW, the Blues had a losing record against the sharks at home too
Edit edit: As the did the Landers
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@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for particularly embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
Neat. Again, not my argument
nor the one made above.We kick the ass of the Springboks 77% of the time here, but when we play them there, they have been more more likely to win.
Edit: @antipodean is right that since the professional era we are more likely to beat them there. We have a losing record at Ellis Park during that time though and some others that have only had single tests (Rustenburg and Nelson Mandela Stadium).
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
I'm not arguing that we didn't dominate them here, but that isn't my argument, nor the one made above.
I believe it is. They didn't display a marked difference in style of play on the road, nor a different level of physicality. Playing at home has its advantages but overall we dominated them.
Their teams struggled to travel, but we gots lots out of learning to play them there and deal with their conditions.
That was the argument made above and I believe that the stats above show that playing SA teams in SA was a different beast to smashing them here.
Similarly, the All Blacks run 48% against the Springboks away and 71% at home.
I'd ignore the pre-professional era. 1996 to now we beat them in South Africa more than they beat us.
Edit: BTW, the Blues had a losing record against the sharks at home too
Yeah, they were shit for a long time.
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Fair enough, not my argument and I've edited accordingly.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus keeps his shoes on, innit
Good eye for detail, but devout Buddhist monks go barefoot (like Buddha).
My eye for detail also noted that I never said anything about a monk...
Premise: All Buddhists remove their shoes before entering places of worship.
Premise: Razor dances in places that worship rugby (stadiums) with his shoes on.
Conclusion: Therefore, Razor is not a Buddhist. -
@nostrildamus he's a very bad buddhist isn't he! Report him I reckon.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus he's a very bad buddhist isn't he! Report him I reckon.
Buddhists believe in Karma rather than punishment, right?
And he isn't AB coach. So... -
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
i dont think im drawing too long a bow to suggest that that might have something to do with travel and time differences
our lack of success in SA has also been attributed by some to bias refs over there
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
i dont think im drawing too long a bow to suggest that that might have something to do with travel and time differences
our lack of success in SA has also been attributed by some to bias refs over there
Egon Seconds...
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not all the teams, all the time. Point being that it educated a large amount of players what was necessary to improve their game.
Chiefs being thrashed in a final comes to mind. Blues had issues with the Sharks many times.
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@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not all the teams, all the time. Point being that it educated a large amount of players what was necessary to improve their game.
Chiefs being thrashed in a final comes to mind. Blues had issues with the Sharks many times.
And, they have a lot of really good players with different strengths to ours. Their teams may not have had the success, but they have some really fucking good rugby players. Your team can win a game while you yourself got beat. That's a learning experience.
But, you know, if you just look at it as shallowly as possible, then yeah, the Lions sucked so South Africa is worthless. So is everyone not named the Crusaders. Razor is god!!!
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my biggest problem was never with the SA teams themselves, it was always just with the travel/time and the apparently loss of interest for a lot of people, a huge (anecdotal) drop in those that would get up to watch the game live and in the last decade even more because social media made it much harder to avoid a score and watch a replay, as soon as a chunk of your games are only watched by hard out die hard fans youre in trouble, in my mind
dont know what the solution was but a competition needed people watching it to be successful
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
my biggest problem was never with the SA teams themselves, it was always just with the travel/time and the apparently loss of interest for a lot of people, a huge (anecdotal) drop in those that would get up to watch the game live and in the last decade even more because social media made it much harder to avoid a score and watch a replay, as soon as a chunk of your games are only watched by hard out die hard fans youre in trouble, in my mind
dont know what the solution was but a competition needed people watching it to be successful
i got old. i used to watch them at the pub!! Absolutely steamed, trying to focus on the TV. You know, the trusty one-eye squint.
Then i would be home well before kickoff.
Then i stopped caring.
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i'll add to my point, i think part of the loss in interest came from playing the springboks so much
a lot of whats special about watching some of their great players play is lost when you know you'll get to see them twice (or three times) for the Bokke...scarcity does help grow importance, if its your only shot to beat a team this season then you cant help but put some importance on it
