All Blacks 2021
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ?
You could say that with a lot of coaches. Henry had a lot of success outside of the ABs - which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post.
Yeah, he had a lot of success outside the ABs... my point though is a coach with more insight than Henry would've got the ABs to perform better consistently.
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@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4
Reckon they could have improve a bit percentage wise - but clearly not by too much, as said it comes back to the great pool of players he had... what annoys me about coaches is some really dumb things they try, that you know are poor options & are never going to work.
Lets face it Henry had some real howlers tactic wise. -
This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust! -
@kiwibloke we have always been told coaching the ABs is easy cos of our cattle, way we played the past 2 years or so shows that ain't true.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere
Even before 2007 we had some absolutely joke teams - 2005 and 2006 were really unbelievable squads and, in many ways, strong that subsequent teams interns of the depth in quality. It's still remarkable we didn't win 2007 when you look at the 2 years prior and what happened after
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Lets face it Henry had some real howlers tactic wise.
He did (especially in 2009(?) when the ABs tried to avoid lineouts vs the Boks) but you could actually see the progression as he learnt from those mistakes and kept on improvising. It is such a contrast to the stale old shite we keep seeing again and again nowadays.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust!Mate, it's never about judging a coach to suit your own argument, that's absolutely pointless, I analyse the tactics etc they have used, reckon the poorer the tactics they've put in place the less insight they tend to have overall, you sound like you're glossing over some of the really poor tactics Henry has used.
Hansen really stuffed up in his last year or so leading into that RWC, because he rotated players too much we had bugger all cohesion going into the tournament, where we hardly fired a shot... also in the Lions series in NZ he had no idea how to counter the rushing defence.ABs have never had poor teams, just over some periods we didn't perform as well as expected, every other team always rates them as the team to beat year in & year out... Foster was a very very average head coach for the Chiefs, so how was he ever going to be a good AB coach ? the fools on the NZRU Board should've appointed Robertson for the job.
Really rated Brian Lochore as a top AB coach, yeah, the game has changed a lot since those days, but the players had a ton of respect for him, he also had excellent man management skills to get the best out of each individual & was tactically smart. -
This post is deleted!
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@junior said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere
Even before 2007 we had some absolutely joke teams - 2005 and 2006 were really unbelievable squads and, in many ways, strong that subsequent teams interns of the depth in quality. It's still remarkable we didn't win 2007 when you look at the 2 years prior and what happened after
ABs have never had any joke teams mate, otherwise we would not have the best win/loss record over all the other teams, just that over some periods as mentioned before we haven't performed as well as expected.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Is @kiwibloke Murray Deaker?
Who is this Henry he is talking about because it sure as hell isn't Ted.
Hilarious ! ...you sound like a combo of Deaker & Brendan Telfer.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Lets face it Henry had some real howlers tactic wise.
He did (especially in 2009(?) when the ABs tried to avoid lineouts vs the Boks) but you could actually see the progression as he learnt from those mistakes and kept on improvising. It is such a contrast to the stale old shite we keep seeing again and again nowadays.
Yeah, I remember where he tried to avoid lineouts against the Boks, not great tactical thinking at all - the AB lineout has been disappointing for yonks, it's not very often that we compete for the oppositions lineout throw, so by staying on the deck we're gifting them easy possession... the Boks consistently have the best lineout in the world because they're always competing for the other sides throw, if they don't win the ball they at least apply a ton of pressure on them, in rugby surely it's about competing for the ball in all areas of the game all the time.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust!Mate, it's never about judging a coach to suit your own argument, that's absolutely pointless, I analyse the tactics etc they have used, reckon the poorer the tactics they've put in place the less insight they tend to have overall, you sound like you're glossing over some of the really poor tactics Henry has used.
Hansen really stuffed up in his last year or so leading into that RWC, because he rotated players too much we had bugger all cohesion going into the tournament, where we hardly fired a shot... also in the Lions series in NZ he had no idea how to counter the rushing defence.ABs have never had poor teams, just over some periods we didn't perform as well as expected, every other team always rates them as the team to beat year in & year out... Foster was a very very average head coach for the Chiefs, so how was he ever going to be a good AB coach ? the fools on the NZRU Board should've appointed Robertson for the job.
Really rated Brian Lochore as a top AB coach, yeah, the game has changed a lot since those days, but the players had a ton of respect for him, he also had excellent man management skills to get the best out of each individual & was tactically smart.Yep fair enough, I also agree Lochore was a bloody good coach, funnily enough a man who himself said he didn't think he would of been a very successful coach in professional times, and was involved with ABs a hell of a lot when Henry was coach. Why would I gloss over Henry's tactics, as I said I didn't know what went on in camp (one of reasons I not all that great at being a critic I know), but I would suggest with all great respect to yourself , I will assume Tana Umaga would be maybe in a pretty good position to judge a coaches ability at test level, even if perhaps you would don't.
Anyway , as you say you want Scott Robertson, so you will probably find it easier to be critical of other coaches, and that not getting at you we all human and tend to have our favourites who we believe will be best for job. I also think we can read too much into success with Super teams, Robbie Deans surely showed us that a very successful Super coach and perhaps not as well thought of at test level. I have said myself I keen on Jamie Joseph as one, someone who has coached outside country etc, but I am no more expert than you so, llike you it's just my opinion.
I just say at moment whether we like Foster or not he is most successful head coach in top tier rugby in 2021.
And I will also add I am a one eyed AB supporter so will tend to support AB coaches and players, and tend to not try and rip them to pieces in public anyway. -
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
ABs have never had any joke teams mate,
We have had some very average sides over the years. Most of the 70's teams were full of players who were workmanlike at best with a sprinkling of world class players.
We also have had some rank bad coaches pre the professional era. Fosters by no means the worst I've seen. I think by focussing on the coaches we are absolving the players of responsibility for our poor showings over the last few years. Plenty of AB teams over the years have had players with the rugby nous to adopt to the opposition on the field. That seems to have disappeared post 2015.
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foster has the weakest support staff since pre 2000s?. he tried to get schmit at beginning but was not available.
joseph/brown would have been strongest team but pulled out before selection. Robinsons team no better than fosters.
im hoping the changes will be made to coaching group after this review. -
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Is @kiwibloke Murray Deaker?
Who is this Henry he is talking about because it sure as hell isn't Ted.
Hilarious ! ...you sound like a combo of Deaker & Brendan Telfer.
did you seriously just use the "i know you are but what am i defense"?
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust!Mate, it's never about judging a coach to suit your own argument, that's absolutely pointless, I analyse the tactics etc they have used, reckon the poorer the tactics they've put in place the less insight they tend to have overall, you sound like you're glossing over some of the really poor tactics Henry has used.
Hansen really stuffed up in his last year or so leading into that RWC, because he rotated players too much we had bugger all cohesion going into the tournament, where we hardly fired a shot... also in the Lions series in NZ he had no idea how to counter the rushing defence.ABs have never had poor teams, just over some periods we didn't perform as well as expected, every other team always rates them as the team to beat year in & year out... Foster was a very very average head coach for the Chiefs, so how was he ever going to be a good AB coach ? the fools on the NZRU Board should've appointed Robertson for the job.
Really rated Brian Lochore as a top AB coach, yeah, the game has changed a lot since those days, but the players had a ton of respect for him, he also had excellent man management skills to get the best out of each individual & was tactically smart.Yep fair enough, I also agree Lochore was a bloody good coach, funnily enough a man who himself said he didn't think he would of been a very successful coach in professional times, and was involved with ABs a hell of a lot when Henry was coach. Why would I gloss over Henry's tactics, as I said I didn't know what went on in camp (one of reasons I not all that great at being a critic I know), but I would suggest with all great respect to yourself , I will assume Tana Umaga would be maybe in a pretty good position to judge a coaches ability at test level, even if perhaps you would don't.
Anyway , as you say you want Scott Robertson, so you will probably find it easier to be critical of other coaches, and that not getting at you we all human and tend to have our favourites who we believe will be best for job. I also think we can read too much into success with Super teams, Robbie Deans surely showed us that a very successful Super coach and perhaps not as well thought of at test level. I have said myself I keen on Jamie Joseph as one, someone who has coached outside country etc, but I am no more expert than you so, llike you it's just my opinion.
I just say at moment whether we like Foster or not he is most successful head coach in top tier rugby in 2021.
And I will also add I am a one eyed AB supporter so will tend to support AB coaches and players, and tend to not try and rip them to pieces in public anyway.Reckon Lochore would've adapted well to the game these days - probably the main structure change are defences standing right across the field like rugby league type defence.
Fosters tactic is very poor one for countering the rushing defence by using box kicks, the ball only travels about 30 metres down field & even if you execute an accurate box kick you'd have less than a 50/50 chance of winning the ball in the air as the opposition players are running forward towards it... the tactics I'd use would be long wiper kicks into space towards the side line or corners, therefore they can only attack from one side of the field, well weighted grubbers into space etc, with defences up so flat there's acres of space behind them.
We see a lot of aimless kicks deep down the middle of the field straight to the opposition, which allows them to counter from either side of the field, making it more difficult to defend against.Again, it's not about trying to rip coaches to pieces, it's about analysing the game yourself... just looking for the best coach available for the ABs, it certainly isn't Foster.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Is @kiwibloke Murray Deaker?
Who is this Henry he is talking about because it sure as hell isn't Ted.
Hilarious ! ...you sound like a combo of Deaker & Brendan Telfer.
did you seriously just use the "i know you are but what am i defense"?
Really ? that's a very weak comment.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
foster has the weakest support staff since pre 2000s?. he tried to get schmit at beginning but was not available.
joseph/brown would have been strongest team but pulled out before selection. Robinsons team no better than fosters.
im hoping the changes will be made to coaching group after this review.Yeah, Joseph/Brown would've been a very good AB combo - very surprised that Robertson wasn't properly prepared, apparently he hadn't sorted out his coaching staff properly... also reckon a combo of Robertson/Joseph or Robertson/Brown would be very good combo's too, wouldn't matter to me which one was head coach as all three have good rugby brains, but another factor is how compatible would either one of those blokes be with Robertson ? if not it's never going to work.
Reckon it's not difficult to read play while watching at Super Rugby or test level... it's clear when a tactic isn't working in a particular situation, then not hard to know what a better tactic would be in that situation for the team to be more effective.
