Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022
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@chris-b said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Not a lot of logic to some of those rankings - there's no doubt though that Sobers is the best all-rounder ever, not only was he a great batsman, he was also a quality pace bowler & a quality wrist spinner, making him worth his weight in gold on any type of wicket.
I guess it's measuring their peak performance - after a golden run of form with bat and ball. Hence early-Botham, comes in second, because he really was sensational in his early days. So that list rewards a high peak rather than long run consistency.
Interesting that you can throw a blanket over people from about Imran down to Sir Paddles, though - all scored 480-520. Not a lot to choose between them.
…..and I guess Flintoff scores highly based on a massive Ashes series and the fact Cairns had retired by then.
Beefy had stats of about 38 and 23 respectively after about 50 tests. He coasted in the second half to be honest.
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@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@hydro11 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
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... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
Doesn’t take away from the fact he was one of our best players and knows the game intimately.
I know. But his involvement appears super duper dodgy.
I contrast this with cancel culture, and I guess it's a matter of degree. There are very few people I'm cautious of continuing in their professions. Tony Veitch is one, Cairns is another. But my list is pretty short.
Let's be clear. The involvement of Cairns isn't dodgy. Brendon McCullum testified under oath that Cairns approached him about match fixing. Either McCullum lied under oath or Cairns is a match fixer.
Cairns should have no place in cricket.
You should add Joseph Parker to your list. No idea how a drug dealer keeps getting so much positive publicity in the media.
I agree with this. I thought his career would be effectively over in New Zealand. Nobody seems to care though and he is brought on the radio for fluff interviews.
I thought Cairns was basically ignored now aside from his recent medical issues. I am a bit surprised he is writing articles.
Parker is a choirboy compared to any number of boxers who’ve done far, far worse and still competed. If anything his recent antics have helped his reputation. Ridiculous comparison.
He allegedly laundered money for people importing commercial quantities of meth into NZ.
I don't care that much about what other boxers have and haven't done - I am surprised that in NZ he seems to have been given a pass.
Actually yeah that’s a good point, we’re pretty quick to judge as a nation.
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Young goes - we're currently 153/1.
54 for Young - including a 7. Not sure I've seen that before. Ran 3 and they threw the ball to the bowler who wasn't backing up and it went to the boundary.
All off an edge dropped in the slips!
It's all happening, Bill!
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@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
He has to follow Conway's example. When he gets in he generally cashes in. Early days for him too of course, but the intent is there
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@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
I grew up with Hartland and Pocock... this will do.
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@rotated said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
I grew up with Hartland and Pocock... this will do.
Not to mention Trevor Franklin...
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@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
I grew up with Hartland and Pocock... this will do.
Not to mention Trevor Franklin...
Franklin and Wright are one of our most successful opening partnerships in tests.
Nice 100 from Latham, much better captain's knock.
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@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
I grew up with Hartland and Pocock... this will do.
Not to mention Trevor Franklin...
Trev was ok. Was decent at setting a ( slow ) foundation
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@godder said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@damo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Will Young gets a lot of good starts but hasn't yet really gone on. Openers need to score big runs when they get a chance because they bat at challenging times.
I grew up with Hartland and Pocock... this will do.
Not to mention Trevor Franklin...
Franklin and Wright are one of our most successful opening partnerships in tests.
Franklin's partnership with baggage carousels being less successful.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Not a lot of logic to some of those rankings - there's no doubt though that Sobers is the best all-rounder ever, not only was he a great batsman, he was also a quality pace bowler & a quality wrist spinner, making him worth his weight in gold on any type of wicket.
I guess it's measuring their peak performance - after a golden run of form with bat and ball. Hence early-Botham, comes in second, because he really was sensational in his early days. So that list rewards a high peak rather than long run consistency.
Interesting that you can throw a blanket over people from about Imran down to Sir Paddles, though - all scored 480-520. Not a lot to choose between them.
Can understand how a player can make a big difference in winning a test match for his side etc... reckon though to find out how really good they are should be rated by their overall career.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Not a lot of logic to some of those rankings - there's no doubt though that Sobers is the best all-rounder ever, not only was he a great batsman, he was also a quality pace bowler & a quality wrist spinner, making him worth his weight in gold on any type of wicket.
I guess it's measuring their peak performance - after a golden run of form with bat and ball. Hence early-Botham, comes in second, because he really was sensational in his early days. So that list rewards a high peak rather than long run consistency.
Interesting that you can throw a blanket over people from about Imran down to Sir Paddles, though - all scored 480-520. Not a lot to choose between them.
I believe it is measuring "peak" all rounder ranking - which is some formula based on the previous 2-3 years performance (weighting more recent efforts).
The formula weights efforts by teams I think, so 1/90 taking the wicket of McGrath in 1994 is better than 1/90 taking the wicket of Martin Crowe.
There is also a huge difference between pre 1990 where all rounders hunted statistics and now where bowlers would not be wasted on the tail.
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@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris-b said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Not a lot of logic to some of those rankings - there's no doubt though that Sobers is the best all-rounder ever, not only was he a great batsman, he was also a quality pace bowler & a quality wrist spinner, making him worth his weight in gold on any type of wicket.
I guess it's measuring their peak performance - after a golden run of form with bat and ball. Hence early-Botham, comes in second, because he really was sensational in his early days. So that list rewards a high peak rather than long run consistency.
Interesting that you can throw a blanket over people from about Imran down to Sir Paddles, though - all scored 480-520. Not a lot to choose between them.
Can understand how a player can make a big difference in winning a test match for his side etc... reckon though to find out how really good they are should be rated by their overall career.
It's the Bond example. How much should a super short career count against him? What if someone un-retires?
It's all arbitrary, but I'd look for the peak 3 to 4 years I reckon
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Bangladesh win the toss and bowl.
Mitchell in for Ravindra. Which, on recent form, makes the middle order seem a bit stronger.
Acid is on the top six to make starts and build on them. And a much improved performance with the ball is needed from Southee and Jamieson.
To me they’re similar in that they’re competent batsmen but next to nothing bowlers at this level. Judging by their first class stats they both average about a wicket or so per match. No where near good enough.
Calling either of them true All rounders is a massive stretch.
Still rate Mitchell a better bowling option than Ravindra on any deck at this stage & Mitchell has also scored a couple of test hundreds too, which also makes our batting stronger.
I suppose Mitch could become that Styris/Astle/McMillan type. Not world class as a batsman but a useful change bowler when needed as all those three were. They did play in an era where we expected less though.
Yeah, Mitchell isn't going to be a world class all-rounder... we're still looking for one, we've had plenty of top all-rounders before, so we should be able to find another one in the near future.
Our batting was very tentative in the first test... good to see that their movements are much more positive, moving the feet well, getting in line with the ball & leaving when needed.
It's ridiculous when batsmen leave the ball & get cleaned bowled or LBW... if you feel the ball is threatening your stumps get in line with it & play with soft hands so there's not much chance of the ball carrying to the keeper or slips.
I don’t reckon. They’re pretty scarce at the best of times and when Mitchell Starc is rated fifth best in the world you know that there’s a dearth of talent all over the world. Another Cairns, Vettori or especially Paddles would be great but don’t hold your breath.
India are just being greedy with Jadeja and Ashwin playing at the same time.
You're probably right - just such a big asset to have a top all-rounder in your side... yeah, don't see Starc as much of an all-rounder, he's basically a bloody slogger with the bat.
Those two calls by the umpire were shockers... the Banglas must have given him a gold watch
All rounder is a term that’s thrown round far too liberally. I think there’s only Holder, Al Hasan, Jadeja, Ashwin and Stokes playing now that deserve the label….and whilst he had his critics CDGH fashioned a bloody decent career for us too.
Paddles himself admitted he was really only “just” an all rounder given his record with the bat.
I believe CdGH averaged around 40 with the bat and 30 with the ball when Kane was captain, so you can see why the loved him and played him in the final.
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@no-quarter said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Bangladesh win the toss and bowl.
Mitchell in for Ravindra. Which, on recent form, makes the middle order seem a bit stronger.
Acid is on the top six to make starts and build on them. And a much improved performance with the ball is needed from Southee and Jamieson.
To me they’re similar in that they’re competent batsmen but next to nothing bowlers at this level. Judging by their first class stats they both average about a wicket or so per match. No where near good enough.
Calling either of them true All rounders is a massive stretch.
Still rate Mitchell a better bowling option than Ravindra on any deck at this stage & Mitchell has also scored a couple of test hundreds too, which also makes our batting stronger.
I suppose Mitch could become that Styris/Astle/McMillan type. Not world class as a batsman but a useful change bowler when needed as all those three were. They did play in an era where we expected less though.
Yeah, Mitchell isn't going to be a world class all-rounder... we're still looking for one, we've had plenty of top all-rounders before, so we should be able to find another one in the near future.
Our batting was very tentative in the first test... good to see that their movements are much more positive, moving the feet well, getting in line with the ball & leaving when needed.
It's ridiculous when batsmen leave the ball & get cleaned bowled or LBW... if you feel the ball is threatening your stumps get in line with it & play with soft hands so there's not much chance of the ball carrying to the keeper or slips.
I don’t reckon. They’re pretty scarce at the best of times and when Mitchell Starc is rated fifth best in the world you know that there’s a dearth of talent all over the world. Another Cairns, Vettori or especially Paddles would be great but don’t hold your breath.
India are just being greedy with Jadeja and Ashwin playing at the same time.
You're probably right - just such a big asset to have a top all-rounder in your side... yeah, don't see Starc as much of an all-rounder, he's basically a bloody slogger with the bat.
Those two calls by the umpire were shockers... the Banglas must have given him a gold watch
All rounder is a term that’s thrown round far too liberally. I think there’s only Holder, Al Hasan, Jadeja, Ashwin and Stokes playing now that deserve the label….and whilst he had his critics CDGH fashioned a bloody decent career for us too.
Paddles himself admitted he was really only “just” an all rounder given his record with the bat.
I believe CdGH averaged around 40 with the bat and 30 with the ball when Kane was captain, so you can see why the loved him and played him in the final.
I get the impression Colin was more successful at home than away, but I don't have the figures to prove or disprove that. His form did drop off quite badly near the end
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Well we lost the toss (yet afuckingain) but we've certainly responded to the challenge this time around. We are miles ahead of the game, and should be aiming to do all of our batting today and tomorrow, then give ourselves 3 days to bowl them out twice.
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@no-quarter said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Well we lost the toss (yet afuckingain) but we've certainly responded to the challenge this time around. We are miles ahead of the game, and should be aiming to do all of our batting today and tomorrow, then give ourselves 3 days to bowl them out twice.
I reckon that’s the plan.
