All Blacks 2021
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception -
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
This 100%. Joe also nearly rolled the ABs back in 2013 in that amazing match, which was only his third match in charge after Samoa and Australia. He absolutely identified a set of tactics that got 105% out of Ireland - 6 Nations in 2014, 2015, 2018. Maybe he lost it a bit the last 18 months, maybe him announcing his departure didn't help the team by the 2019 WC ... but it's part of succession planning so he did the right (professional) thing to allow for that
I'm not sure what more can be asked/expected of a coach at that level ... it was his FIRST international coaching gig, has there even been a better first gig? He also strikes me as very thoughtful and - like Henry - someone who can/will recognise and learn where he can improve ongoing
The question mark for me would be whether after "failing" at the WC (failing is a relative term here ... but it's inevitable as an international head coach) he has that burning ambition to still want to get better as coach, and to keep shooting for the next level. The kind of relentless drive/ambition that say Graham Henry and Eddie Jones have shown in spades
He's not the messiah, but I'd have no problems assuming Joe really wants the AB role and has NZR inside running for the job, with Scott Robertson hopefully being lined up as one assistant (amazing loyalty, must have some kind of guarantee from NZR?)
Now NZR, just pay enough $$$ for say Shaun Edwards and Tony Brown too
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately. -
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
Mate I not a great Foster fan, but what do you measure sucess of a head coach? How many tournaments did Schmidt coached teams win? As an international coach you mention he was the ABs under his watch had worst los to OZ, and seem to forget also had the highest points gainst Oz and biggest margin against them. As I said I not a Foster fan really, but stop cherry picking results. Since he been head coach of ABs they have won all 4 comps they have taken place in,2 x Bled and 2 RCs, including being the most successful tier 1 team in 2021!
Schmidt is good coach , at Tes level he has won a 3 x 6Ns, has coached teams that have been knocked out of WC by Argentina, and losing to japan in WC!
Don't forget he was also offered a job with ABs when Wayne Smith packed it in, and turned it down to stay with Ireland. he was also part of Blues worst performing years where they made one semi, but were pretty well easy beats. So NZR has offered him chance regardless of what some say, but he wasn't interested, he also declined the chance to apply for Head coach role when Foster was appointed! And you pointed out he was assistant coach when ABs lsot to Ireland for first time, yet you omit to remind us he was asst coach when we won WC in 2015 and from 2012 to 2015 probably the best AB team of modern era. I never gave Fozzie credit for that either and wouldn't as he only asst coach same as he was against Ireland!
Still doesn't answer my question, how were ABs most successful Tier 1 team with such an average team and coach? -
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
This 100%. Joe also nearly rolled the ABs back in 2013 in that amazing match, which was only his third match in charge after Samoa and Australia. He absolutely identified a set of tactics that got 105% out of Ireland - 6 Nations in 2014, 2015, 2018. Maybe he lost it a bit the last 18 months, maybe him announcing his departure didn't help the team by the 2019 WC ... but it's part of succession planning so he did the right (professional) thing to allow for that
I'm not sure what more can be asked/expected of a coach at that level ... it was his FIRST international coaching gig, has there even been a better first gig? He also strikes me as very thoughtful and - like Henry - someone who can/will recognise and learn where he can improve ongoing
The question mark for me would be whether after "failing" at the WC (failing is a relative term here ... but it's inevitable as an international head coach) he has that burning ambition to still want to get better as coach, and to keep shooting for the next level. The kind of relentless drive/ambition that say Graham Henry and Eddie Jones have shown in spades
He's not the messiah, but I'd have no problems assuming Joe really wants the AB role and has NZR inside running for the job, with Scott Robertson hopefully being lined up as one assistant (amazing loyalty, must have some kind of guarantee from NZR?)
Now NZR, just pay enough $$$ for say Shaun Edwards and Tony Brown too
I would rather NZR could get a Jamie Joseph, Razor , and Tony Brown or maybe Schmidt as one of them. But as I said Schmidt has been offered AB's assistant job before and didn't want it, so just maybe as not wanting to apply last year, maybe it not his ambition to coach them?
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@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
Are you taking the mickey? Look at Ireland since 2019. Maybe Ireland's 19-12 loss to Japan was an aberration, the 46-14 loss to New Zealand was another aberration, and the hiding by Wales in 6 Nations with the trophy in sight, and 4 consecutive losses to England meant nothing as they were just local affairs.
It is all about the 39-31 thrashing of Japan after the unlucky loss. Just as well they had Italy to beat in 6N this year after the losses to Wales and France and lucky escape against Scotland.
Maybe someone showed you a highlights reel of the Argentina match after the win over NZ. A marginal forward under the sticks seems to have turned winners into dunces and vice versa.
NZ had the best win ratio of all teams this year- 5 more matches than Ireland.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@arhs said in All Blacks 2021:
NZ had the best win ratio of all teams this year-
Against the powerhouses that are Tonga, USA and Italy.
To that you can add Wallabies without Kerevi at Eden Park.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one,
Hansen greatly benefitted from a plethora of all time greats all in one team at the same time - McCaw, Carter, Conrad, Aaron and Ben Smith, Nonu, Retallick, Kaino, Read .That's 9 of the 15.
That's not counting Sam Whitelock and perhaps a few others were bloody good.
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster.
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The year before Schmidt took over, ABs beat Ireland 60-0 in Hamilton, his first year we won in Dublin 22-19.
3 years later they got thier maiden win, smacking us 40-29, we bounce back the next week, 21-9.
2 years later in 2016 they beat us again.
We have a played 6, won 3 record over Ireland since Schmidt took over and after, with an average score of 25-22 to us.
I think it's fair to say he had a positive influence on them.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
This 100%. Joe also nearly rolled the ABs back in 2013 in that amazing match, which was only his third match in charge after Samoa and Australia. He absolutely identified a set of tactics that got 105% out of Ireland - 6 Nations in 2014, 2015, 2018. Maybe he lost it a bit the last 18 months, maybe him announcing his departure didn't help the team by the 2019 WC ... but it's part of succession planning so he did the right (professional) thing to allow for that
I'm not sure what more can be asked/expected of a coach at that level ... it was his FIRST international coaching gig, has there even been a better first gig? He also strikes me as very thoughtful and - like Henry - someone who can/will recognise and learn where he can improve ongoing
The question mark for me would be whether after "failing" at the WC (failing is a relative term here ... but it's inevitable as an international head coach) he has that burning ambition to still want to get better as coach, and to keep shooting for the next level. The kind of relentless drive/ambition that say Graham Henry and Eddie Jones have shown in spades
He's not the messiah, but I'd have no problems assuming Joe really wants the AB role and has NZR inside running for the job, with Scott Robertson hopefully being lined up as one assistant (amazing loyalty, must have some kind of guarantee from NZR?)
Now NZR, just pay enough $$$ for say Shaun Edwards and Tony Brown too
I would rather NZR could get a Jamie Joseph, Razor , and Tony Brown or maybe Schmidt as one of them. But as I said Schmidt has been offered AB's assistant job before and didn't want it, so just maybe as not wanting to apply last year, maybe it not his ambition to coach them?
Yeah, Eddie is amazing but isn't a good fit for the AB unless you tolerate assistant coaches leaving every 12 months or so or being chucked. Shaun Edwards was a stir because it wouldn't happen for a few reasons, but hard to deny his credentials.
Not sure about Joe Schmid's ambition, but understandably he puts his family situation first and foremost. It may be with family settled in NZ he wants to step-up after the next RWC. Equally if he prefers a relatively "cushy" low-key selector role I couldn't blame the guy. Only time will tell us
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.I think I simply agree with every word of that you know? Have a chocolate fish (are they still around even?)
Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@arhs said in All Blacks 2021:
NZ had the best win ratio of all teams this year-
Against the powerhouses that are Tonga, USA and Italy.
Mate you can only beat those who will play you!
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@arhs said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
is record is probably not as good as Fosters even
What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc
Are you taking the mickey? Look at Ireland since 2019. Maybe Ireland's 19-12 loss to Japan was an aberration, the 46-14 loss to New Zealand was another aberration, and the hiding by Wales in 6 Nations with the trophy in sight, and 4 consecutive losses to England meant nothing as they were just local affairs.
It is all about the 39-31 thrashing of Japan after the unlucky loss. Just as well they had Italy to beat in 6N this year after the losses to Wales and France and lucky escape against Scotland.
Maybe someone showed you a highlights reel of the Argentina match after the win over NZ. A marginal forward under the sticks seems to have turned winners into dunces and vice versa.
NZ had the best win ratio of all teams this year- 5 more matches than Ireland.
Mate I not saying anyone is bad or good, just suggesting we have to use same measuring stick. Saying Irelands loss to Japan was an aberration, they then got beaten quite convincinly by ABs. But I not knocking Schmidt, just saying when teams he coaches lose againt Argentina and Japan is an aberration and another coach's team who is not destroys arguments.
We have the same thing with Gatland who get's rubbished because of so called Warrenball ( which was really playing to team's strengths) etc etc. Schmidt while he was coaching Ireland was copping a heap of shit too (sames reason, playing to strengths)for their 10 man rugby, on rugby forums etc everywhere, but that is forgotten now.
Mate one thing I know it really doesn't matter who is coach, there will be people who really don't know any better will rubbish them.
I know a few who cringe at the thought of Razor being coach, and they point to his only real international experience with NZ U20s, he won one WC and then coached them to 5th place in next one. Once again they cherry picking results to suit their argument!
We wnet through same thing after 2007 WC with Deans vs Henry etc, and then Deans first game in charge Wallabies beat ABs, all the Deans brigade were screaming see see, and went awful quite when Wallabies then turned to custard!
Last year we had same thing with Rennie ( another bloody good coach) but seems to have gone a lot quieter now with his international record over a couple of years. And good as he is he has no record of winning to speak of really anyway, just was fashion for a year or 2. -
@dan54 It'll be as much about the coaching team, not just the head coach? And whether they can mesh/massage some big egos. Maybe I'm wistful for that Henry-Hansen-Smith dream team ... this I must admit
Put simply if either Jamie Joseph or Joe Schmid can rock up as Head Coach for interview with a team of both Scott Robertson and Tony Brown as assistants he can say "Look I've got all the bases covered, including Scott ... for your succession planning in 4-8 years"
Maybe I'll be wrong but my gut feel that NZR will prefer a new HC with international experience after Fozzie
Joe could have the inside running, has been given the nod and has been parachuted in already... quite often how things get managed behind the scenes in business.
And the way things work at rarified levels, we won't ever knowScott Robertson could well be "kingmaker" as assistant coach and next-in-line? NZR have kept him very close onboard too and won't want to lose him overseas surely. So maybe
Joe Schmid + Scott Robertson + TBA
vs
Jamie Joseph + Tony Brown + TBA
vs
Warren + some blokes?Would love to be a fly-on-the-wall seeing all the positioning and "chats" that must be in play (or have already happened) with NZR and between these guys
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@dan54 All I am saying is that all teams have their ups and downs - including Ireland - and there is a competitive playing field amongst the top 10 or so, where anyone can win or lose on a day, particularly when there are factors affecting the squad. I just don't like to see good coaches and teams absolutely rubbished. Joe Schmidt is very good, and prepares his team very well. But, he was also under the gun too for those bad results. Does not make him a bad coach. Would be nice if NZ can combine the talents of Schmidt, Foster and Robertson in preparing for RWC and what it throws at the squad.
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR
All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
Last year we had same thing with Rennie ( another bloody good coach) but seems to have gone a lot quieter now with his international record over a couple of years. And good as he is he has no record of winning to speak of really anyway, just was fashion for a year or 2.
That's just silly, especially in light of your comments in the preceding paragraphs. He had a 6 year period when he won 3 U20s and 2 S14s. He then kept the Chiefs in the finals hunt for the remainder of his time. At no stage did he ever have a squad as strong as the ones Razor has had.
Arguably his most successful coaching was keeping the Poo reasonably competitive for as long as he did.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
