All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
-
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
It seems it’s throw your arms in the air and point fingers is the Foster way.
-
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
What if he did and they just had a bad game because they hadn't played in a game with that intensity for a while with that sort of febrile atmosphere? You guys take it for granted that AB players will just perform. That was a cauldron on Saturday. It galvanised the Irish. Like the Anfield effect with Liverpool.
If Ireland play like that in the 6N away, I'll take note.
-
@stodders in fairness....the passing and tackling has been an issue all season
was it the first SA test where we were talking about how slow/messy/disjointed the ball was from TJ through BB, was hardly getting past 12
-
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
As AB coach you'd have to work with what you've got and obviously iron out any deficiencies on expected skills at that level. Imagine you'd set targets and expect the players to meet them just as they do with nutrition. Hopefully there's feedback to the lower levels so the standards are kept to the right level.
It's not new. I recall Colin Meads calling out provincial coaches for not doing their jobs properly on what he thought were basic skills so the same should hold true now.
-
@victor-meldrew look, as i say i agree in general....i just think trying to persist with an open counter attack game plan when several of the team are passing so poorly or giving away so much ball when we're getting picked up on the regular for poor tackling....is a pretty damning indictment
I would expect a coach of that level to go "shit...i thought you guys would be better and be able to handle this game plan...you cant so lets pivot, work on some basics, come up with an approach that doesn't pay on our weaknesses"
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
As AB coach you'd have to work with what you've got and obviously iron out any deficiencies on expected skills at that level.
As a non-international coach of very little repute, I just dial the training back a step to ensure they're focusing on timing and execution. At that level I'd imagine the review would identify if it's a drill issue or the players themselves would acknowledge and respond accordingly.
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
As AB coach you'd have to work with what you've got and obviously iron out any deficiencies on expected skills at that level.
As a non-international coach of very little repute, I just dial the training back a step to ensure they're focusing on timing and execution. At that level I'd imagine the review would identify if it's a drill issue or the players themselves would acknowledge and respond accordingly.
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
💯
-
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders thats where we we get into the pure speculation territory
whats more likely, a coach drills the team in the basics (passing, catching, tackling, which is where we're seeing a lot of deficiencies) and then these professional sportsmen just forget....or the coach is focusing on other aspects of the game (broken play, counter attack) leaving the players to get rusty at the basics
i dont know, both seem a stupid idea but i get the feeling one of the two is happening
I would have thought a professional player good enough to make the ABs would have the basics of tackling, passing and catching pretty much baked in and not need much drilling from an AB coach.
If those skills are rusty, that's down to the coaches at the lower levels and the players themselves. I'm quite sure the likes of Nonu & Smith practised passing in their own time and set their own high standards and I'm sure plenty of todays player are the same.
I would agree on paper...but if you're the AB coach watching the game and you see as many passes go behind player or to shoulders, or poor tackles...are you just going to throw your hands in the air and say it was the coach's job at a lower level...or are you going to coach them?
As AB coach you'd have to work with what you've got and obviously iron out any deficiencies on expected skills at that level.
As a non-international coach of very little repute, I just dial the training back a step to ensure they're focusing on timing and execution. At that level I'd imagine the review would identify if it's a drill issue or the players themselves would acknowledge and respond accordingly.
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
And if players have the skills, but not the composure to execute when under pressure, then they should be given the chance to learn and show they can handle that pressure next time. If not, you have to cut them loose until they display that ability to execute.
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
Me too. They seem to have also lost the ability to control the tempo of the game, calm down and do the simple things well when under pressure. Disappointing as the signs of that were starting to show up against Oz and the 1st Boks game.
-
On-field culture issue (particularly when under pressure) impacting execution of the game plan? Agree a good coach will bring in expertise to fix that issue.
3 different captains can't have helped either, nor injuries to experienced players an newer ones finding their feet. Will be interesting to see who's captain on Saturday.
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All the comments about the French Test are getting crowded out. Can we keep this thread about selections for this week etc?
More general stuff about changing coaches etc can go in the AB 2021 thread
and to bring it around to this
i would cut Foster an awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
You'd be among a very small minority!!!
I'm in the hell no camp!!! We did that against Italy a fortnight ago and the newbies were pretty uniformly ordinary.
Funnily enough (as you implied earlier) we're missing Scott Barrett. After watching Vaa'i against Italy, I wasn't surprised Foster was scared to bring him off the bench vs Ireland, because vs Italy he was a penalty/turnover-giving machine. So we were stuck with Brodie and Sam who were probably gassed.
A selection cock-up was picking Christie if they didn't have the confidence to use him. They should have put Smith on the bench if they weren't prepared to put Christie on in a tight game.
I'm also not in the camp that we've left anyone much at home who would have made a difference (other than the injured or unavailable - Barrett, Goodhue, Tuipolotou). It was very clear at the end of Super rugby that Big Leicester wasn't ready for test rugby. Similarly, Rayasi.
Where we've been in agreement for years is against playing dual opensides. We didn't quite do that - we played a big 7, a small 6 and 7 at 8. Miles away from Kaino, McCaw, Read gold standard.
I'd probably be inclined to play AIoane, Cane, Jacobsen this week and Blackadder or Papalií on the bench. But, what I wouldn't mind seeing is Ioane at 8, so that he prepares space for Tom Robinson to come in at 6 next year.
-
@victor-meldrew yes, i realise i may have been coming across like i thought they didn't have the skill, of course they do, we've all seen it...theyre just struggling for some reason and as has been mentioned they are not showing the composure to do the basics right
I guess i came at it from a simplify the game plan approach, let them get out of their heads a bit
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
Me too. They seem to have also lost the ability to control the tempo of the game, calm down and do the simple things well when under pressure. Disappointing as the signs of that were starting to show up against Oz and the 1st Boks game.
That's a big part of the 10s job and why I was so pissed off at Mounga.
-
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All the comments about the French Test are getting crowded out. Can we keep this thread about selections for this week etc?
More general stuff about changing coaches etc can go in the AB 2021 thread
and to bring it around to this
i would cut Foster an awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
You'd be among a very small minority!!!
I'm in the hell no camp!!! We did that against Italy a fortnight ago and the newbies were pretty uniformly ordinary.
Funnily enough (as you implied earlier) we're missing Scott Barrett. After watching Vaa'i against Italy, I wasn't surprised Foster was scared to bring him off the bench vs Ireland, because vs Italy he was a penalty/turnover-giving machine. So we were stuck with Brodie and Sam who were probably gassed.
A selection cock-up was picking Christie if they didn't have the confidence to use him. They should have put Smith on the bench if they weren't prepared to put Christie on in a tight game.
I'm also not in the camp that we've left anyone much at home who would have made a difference (other than the injured or unavailable - Barrett, Goodhue, Tuipolotou). It was very clear at the end of Super rugby that Big Leicester wasn't ready for test rugby. Similarly, Rayasi.
Where we've been in agreement for years is against playing dual opensides. We didn't quite do that - we played a big 7, a small 6 and 7 at 8. Miles away from Kaino, McCaw, Read gold standard.
I'd probably be inclined to play AIoane, Cane, Jacobsen this week and Blackadder or Papalií on the bench. But, what I wouldn't mind seeing is Ioane at 8, so that he prepares space for Tom Robinson to come in at 6 next year.
so, essentially, we're fucked?
Because the newbies aren't good enough, and the supposed "rockstars" are playing like shit for various reasons.
-
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All the comments about the French Test are getting crowded out. Can we keep this thread about selections for this week etc?
More general stuff about changing coaches etc can go in the AB 2021 thread
and to bring it around to this
i would cut Foster an awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
You'd be among a very small minority!!!
I'm in the hell no camp!!! We did that against Italy a fortnight ago and the newbies were pretty uniformly ordinary.
Funnily enough (as you implied earlier) we're missing Scott Barrett. After watching Vaa'i against Italy, I wasn't surprised Foster was scared to bring him off the bench vs Ireland, because vs Italy he was a penalty/turnover-giving machine. So we were stuck with Brodie and Sam who were probably gassed.
A selection cock-up was picking Christie if they didn't have the confidence to use him. They should have put Smith on the bench if they weren't prepared to put Christie on in a tight game.
I'm also not in the camp that we've left anyone much at home who would have made a difference (other than the injured or unavailable - Barrett, Goodhue, Tuipolotou). It was very clear at the end of Super rugby that Big Leicester wasn't ready for test rugby. Similarly, Rayasi.
Where we've been in agreement for years is against playing dual opensides. We didn't quite do that - we played a big 7, a small 6 and 7 at 8. Miles away from Kaino, McCaw, Read gold standard.
I'd probably be inclined to play AIoane, Cane, Jacobsen this week and Blackadder or Papalií on the bench. But, what I wouldn't mind seeing is Ioane at 8, so that he prepares space for Tom Robinson to come in at 6 next year.
Tom Robinson is a red headed taller version of Blackadder
-
@antipodean Totally agree, I don't think the Irish players are more skilled then the ABs. But fuck me they were all on the same page and the fluidity to their attack and structure was fantastic.
The ABs rushed passes and lack of ball control really is an issue. It's almost as if the players are trying to create something from nothing and don't have confidence in their systems. The two teams were worlds apart in terms of structure and gameplans. -
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
Me too. They seem to have also lost the ability to control the tempo of the game, calm down and do the simple things well when under pressure. Disappointing as the signs of that were starting to show up against Oz and the 1st Boks game.
That's a big part of the 10s job and why I was so pissed off at Mounga.
But who should be and isn't talking to Mounga?
I remember Carter praising Nonu for talking to him all the time about how he saw the game unfolding. Perhaps that why AS seems so key to our success as the newer players lack the experience or confidence to speak out
EDIT: I should add that this is something for the coach to fix.
-
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
From what I observed, it's not a skill issue; rather a composure one.
Me too. They seem to have also lost the ability to control the tempo of the game, calm down and do the simple things well when under pressure. Disappointing as the signs of that were starting to show up against Oz and the 1st Boks game.
That's a big part of the 10s job and why I was so pissed off at Mounga.
shows how much we rely on smith for this
@Victor-Meldrew yes, and i think this is where having a clear preference in each position help, with several games in a row to build that confidence in each other
currently pretty much every position in the backline as at least 2 people who have an even shot at starting
