Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@chris that kind of what i was getting at....the biggest compliment we can find is they are still "innovating"...and the first example of that is pretty much a gimmick trick play...IE their not really innovating in a meaningful way
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris that kind of what i was getting at....the biggest compliment we can find is they are still "innovating"...and the first example of that is pretty much a gimmick trick play...IE their not really innovating in a meaningful way
Yep see your point
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rugby Planet gettingit right on their Hot or Not
Questions for Ian Foster: The All Blacks have had a much better 2021 but this was certainly a step backwards for the three-time world champions. After the issues in 2020 and the criticism that came Foster’s way, their results – and performances – this season certainly eased the pressure on the head coach, but the focus is now back on him and the coaching staff. He has now succumbed to Australia, Argentina, South Africa and Ireland in a year, and France could add their name to that list this weekend. Given that his predecessors Steve Hansen and Graham Henry rarely lost a match, let alone to that many countries, it is not a great record to have. It was a continuity appointment when they needed a visionary as, ultimately, it doesn’t feel like much has changed from the Henry and Hansen era. The British and Irish Lions, to a degree, figured them out in 2017 and since then not much has been altered, other than some of the personnel they are using, and you can’t really question the individual talent in New Zealand. It is now an especially huge game this weekend against Les Bleus..
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@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
rugby Planet gettingit right on their Hot or Not
Questions for Ian Foster: The All Blacks have had a much better 2021 but this was certainly a step backwards for the three-time world champions. After the issues in 2020 and the criticism that came Foster’s way, their results – and performances – this season certainly eased the pressure on the head coach, but the focus is now back on him and the coaching staff. He has now succumbed to Australia, Argentina, South Africa and Ireland in a year, and France could add their name to that list this weekend. Given that his predecessors Steve Hansen and Graham Henry rarely lost a match, let alone to that many countries, it is not a great record to have. It was a continuity appointment when they needed a visionary as, ultimately, it doesn’t feel like much has changed from the Henry and Hansen era. The British and Irish Lions, to a degree, figured them out in 2017 and since then not much has been altered, other than some of the personnel they are using, and you can’t really question the individual talent in New Zealand. It is now an especially huge game this weekend against Les Bleus..
Nailed it.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
Agree with what you wrote but the majority of your post could be used as an argument to show Foster doesn't know what his best team is. Depends on how you look at it I suppose.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
Agree with what you wrote but the majority of your post could be used as an argument to show Foster doesn't know what his best team is. Depends on how you look at it I suppose.
yeah i get that, but i can only imagine the howls of outrage if he left lots of those guys out. For the most part all season people hav been happy with the selecting right up to the final whistle. The same guys have played the big games.
We're paying for a lack of depth.
And he's not allowed to build depth or rabid Cantabs get upset because he uses too many players.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
and that is my main point
I am not a Foster fan, the Chiefs days scarred me. I also think we had got stale in 2019 and just rolling on was a mistake
I can see the serious deficiencies in our play, like most can. I think we have significant issues in our IP.
BUT
I also think we don't have a god-given right to win every game now because, we do not have the players to do it. We have a good squad of good players, that has some serious holes, especially in the grunt areas. No coach is bringing back 2015 with this squad.
And i've been pretty consistent on why i think that is.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
Yeah I think it's a bit of both. A few years ago the team picked itself, now every postion can be debated one way or another. So I don’t really blame Foster for the chopping and changing. Very few are demanding selection.
My memory tells me the year before the 1987 world cup the players and coaches sat down and decided they had to go to a more expansive game if they were to win the cup. They decided that they no longer had the players to win with the usual NZ style (very forward orientated). The NZ game as we know it now has evolved fom there.
Maybe it's time for another major re-think on how we play the game? We have fumbled along since the Lions.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
Yeah I think it's a bit of both. A few years ago the team picked itself, now every postion can be debated one way or another. So I don’t really blame Foster for the chopping and changing. Very few are demanding selection.
My memory tells me the year before the 1987 world cup the players and coaches sat down and decided they had to go to a more expansive game if they were to win the cup. They decided that they no longer had the players to win with the usual NZ style (very forward orientated). The NZ game as we know it now has evolved fom there.
Maybe it's time for another major re-think on how we play the game? We have fumbled along since the Lions.
I just don't know if Fozz is the man to change the mindset. He struck me as being a better assistant than a HC
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
and that is my main point
I am not a Foster fan, the Chiefs days scarred me. I also think we had got stale in 2019 and just rolling on was a mistake
I can see the serious deficiencies in our play, like most can. I think we have significant issues in our IP.
BUT
I also think we don't have a god-given right to win every game now because, we do not have the players to do it. We have a good squad of good players, that has some serious holes, especially in the grunt areas. No coach is bringing back 2015 with this squad.
And i've been pretty consistent on why i think that is.
I don't disagree,But I have been consistent saying I don't believe Foster and the current coaching group are the one's to take us forward.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
Razor must be pretty good then considering coach Deans has since won 4 Japanese titles, meanwhile Razor's win-record, consistently, selections, man management & reputation with Crusaders/Canterbury exceeds Robbie's.
Razor's more consistent 89% long-term success with Crusaders vs Dean's 74% (with McCaw, Carter et.al).
Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 5 titles in 5 seasons without the extensive list of Deans/Blackadder's all time goats like Carter, McCaw, etc.. Robertson has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well.
Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record.
The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 89% win record throughout his 5 years at the helm.
He even coached the Crusaders to a title victory, with the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team away on the highveld as well.
And every following season since Crusaders have won the overall title, dominating SA teams in the process. Even a pandemic hasn't put paid to the winning, in SRA, a tougher more intense competition than the previous.
Notwithstanding all that winning, the old boys club still saw fit to appoint and then reappoint Foster in 2021, before they even faced a top 5 side in the rankings...
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Also, there seems to be a misconception on here that Robertson would simply be a Robbie Deans 2.0, when in reality they are very different coaches..
Deans was never Razor's level. Razor has produced far more consistent results overall when look across his campaigns.
Razor has superior man-management, tactical skills & has flawless player coach relationships, his game-planning is razor sharp as well.
In contrast, Robbie has a long history of inconsistent results, poor selections & widely documented fallouts with his players..
Selecting Blair & Ralph, after dropping Cullen, playing McDonald at 13, etc.. Deans had a infamous history of completely bizarre selections.
Deans was an overrated coach who won 1 NPC title from 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor won 3/4 titles with Canterbury, so far 5/5 with Crusaders despite the absence of multiple greats - of which Deans had an abundance of.
Razor's 89% Crusaders win record makes Dean's 74% look relatively middling in comparison.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Deans was never Razor's level. Razor has produced far more consistent results overall when look across his campaigns.
How'd he go in the most recent SRTT comp?
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
Razor must be pretty good then considering coach Deans has since won 4 Japanese titles, meanwhile Razor's win-record, consistently, selections, man management & reputation with Crusaders/Canterbury exceeds Robbie's.
Razor's more consistent 89% long-term success with Crusaders vs Dean's 74% (with McCaw, Carter et.al).
Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 5 titles in 5 seasons without the extensive list of Deans/Blackadder's all time goats like Carter, McCaw, etc.. Robertson has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well.
Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record.
The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 89% win record throughout his 5 years at the helm.
He even coached the Crusaders to a title victory, with the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team away on the highveld as well.
And every following season since Crusaders have won the overall title, dominating SA teams in the process. Even a pandemic hasn't put paid to the winning, in SRA, a tougher more intense competition than the previous.
Notwithstanding all that winning, the old boys club still saw fit to appoint and then reappoint Foster in 2021, before they even faced a top 5 side in the rankings...
Great Post you are spot on.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, there seems to be a misconception on here that Robertson would simply be a Robbie Deans 2.0, when in reality they are very different coaches..
NO. I made the comparison and it was all about the public baying for them to be appointed, not about their coaching records or styles.
The point was that it becomes a mantra and loses some objectivity. I haven't ever said that Razor isn't a good coach just that maybe there are things we should question before declaring him as the saviour.
