All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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those repeated goal line stands were heroic and almost game saving.
Severely taxing though.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
But they are all down to Foster. So trying to fix them some other way isn't going to work.
Those of us who follow the Chiefs knows how this goes -- there will be some false dawns where improvement appears to happen, followed soon after by ever more awful outcomes. Foster doesn't get better over time, that we know.
The "what happens if Robertson sucks argument" is lame. Do we keep Foster on for the next 50 years, just in case the next guy is worse? Which, in Robertson's case, he definitely isn't.
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
When did Foster join the AB set-up. Would it be about six fucking years ago?
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Bull. Hansen tried things. The "dual playmaker" gambit didn't work, but he did try something new.
What innovation is Foster delivering to the team? Be specific.
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@chester-draws TBF, IIRC we had 25 tests in a row where we didnt start the same mid-field combo in consecutive games before Nonu-Smith became the encumbants (Mauger, McAlister, Nonu, Smith and were a couple others I think)
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
But they are all down to Foster. So trying to fix them some other way isn't going to work.
Those of us who follow the Chiefs knows how this goes -- there will be some false dawns where improvement appears to happen, followed soon after by ever more awful outcomes. Foster doesn't get better over time, that we know.
The "what happens if Robertson sucks argument" is lame. Do we keep Foster on for the next 50 years, just in case the next guy is worse? Which, in Robertson's case, he definitely isn't.
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
When did Foster join the AB set-up. Would it be about six fucking years ago?
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Bull. Hansen tried things. The "dual playmaker" gambit didn't work, but he did try something new.
What innovation is Foster delivering to the team? Be specific.
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
The counterpoint is we've heard this tune before.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
The counterpoint is we've heard this tune before.
look, agreed. i wasn't really excusing them.
If they really came out of that review feeling good then we are proper fucked.
Yes, proper fucked
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
Maybe so, but the way the game was played wasn't great. I didn't feel we were in control of the game much at all
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
Maybe so, but the way the game was played wasn't great. I didn't feel we were in control of the game much at all
devils advocate
of course we weren't. But the game isn't about being in control, ultimately the game is about scoring more points than the opposition
Perhaps these dudes know the limitations we have, pick a bunch of guys who will keep the score close by tackling and scrambling like dervishes, and then ruthlessly exploit the 3 or 4 opportunities we are given.
I'm not saying it's a great plan. And it's not one I'm a fan of. But, it is a plan, and, if i think about our players, it's not a stupid idea.
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@machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Jesus, they're living in their own dream world confirmation bubble. Don't expect any real growth in the ABs until post world cup
Prop Joe Moody backed the side's game plan for the Ireland test, saying that they just failed to take the right options at key times.
"Watching the review this morning, we're still creating the opportunities, we're just - at that final hurdle - choosing the wrong option and not quite executing. I don't feel like it's a game plan thing."Living in their own little world certainly makes sense when you consider the Frizzell selection.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
Maybe so, but the way the game was played wasn't great. I didn't feel we were in control of the game much at all
devils advocate
of course we weren't. But the game isn't about being in control, ultimately the game is about scoring more points than the opposition
Perhaps these dudes know the limitations we have, pick a bunch of guys who will keep the score close by tackling and scrambling like dervishes, and then ruthlessly exploit the 3 or 4 opportunities we are given.
I'm not saying it's a great plan. And it's not one I'm a fan of. But, it is a plan, and, if i think about our players, it's not a stupid idea.
I know youre playing devils advocate, but in context it isnt one, loss, we still lost to Arge, SA, Aus and Ireland in close to a year.
I am going to suggest the game plan hasnt changed for over a decade, it feels like it was built around the GOAT (which I can understand), however I cant remember us dominating turnovers or retaining ball to consistently to give us enough opportunites consistently to win against the top teams, since we were doing it with Ritchie around.
So is 3 or 4 enough? Sometimes it is I guess and we have results to prove it, however I supect a lot now think it isnt good enough any longer.
I am going to go to suggest we do have the cattle, even the ones that leave show that playing us. We have a few things to fix which have already been mentioned but the inferior version of Hansen ball just makes it worse.
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@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
Both are related to dominant tackles too
A dominant tackle makes it easier for the second arriving player to pilfer. Also, a momentum killing tackle cuts down the attack options and forces the kick.
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@duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
Both are related to dominant tackles too
A dominant tackle makes it easier for the second arriving player to pilfer. Also, a momentum killing tackle cuts down the attack options and forces the kick.
yep, i've said the same thing a bunch since Sunday. The reason the irish had so much ball is we never gave ourselves a chance to get it back
We also don't have a guy who is really good on teh ground.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
It still works a lot of the time. Problem is that when a team is extra focused and organised on executing a gameplan that negates this, and has the right personnel (not the odd few flakes like Australia), it doesn't.
Key matchup games like England, SA, Ireland, and possibly France open up the very possibility of them playing well and us struggling. If they don't execute well then we still win.
I agree that we need to come up with a new style, or at the least have a counter to when a team turns up, plays the negation, and is in good form. We are back to the no plan B days again.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
Both are related to dominant tackles too
A dominant tackle makes it easier for the second arriving player to pilfer. Also, a momentum killing tackle cuts down the attack options and forces the kick.
yep, i've said the same thing a bunch since Sunday. The reason the irish had so much ball is we never gave ourselves a chance to get it back
We also don't have a guy who is really good on teh ground.
We had one but wouldn't invest in him. Boshier.
By far the best jackler in the country. -
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 Give Rennie time. Remember his team beat the Boks twice, it’s his first year coaching an international team unlike Foster and is their depth better than ours?
Um I a like Rennie, but I don't know how to break this to you, he's actually coached the Wallabies as long as Foster has done the ABs, and it's not his first year, but second!
I not knocking him by any means (actually always been a Rennie fan) or saying he better or worse than Foster (never would) .
There is one thing I can guarantee you, I (and I guessing anyone on this bored) would have a lot less knowledge of who should be coaching any teams than the people who appoint the coaches.
From an Aussie perspective Rennie has won nothing of importance in 2 years, had a 16% winning record last year, and again this year hasn't won Bledisloe or RC, but not blaming him in anyway.
ABs have held Bled both years, and won RC both years, once again is that because of players or coaches, who knows.
Although as AB supporters we want to win every test usually, but that doesn't happen very often at all, apart from a couple of times when we had a team with 2 once in a lifetime players called Richie McCaw and Dan Carter, backed up by a team withprobably 5-6 player who would make a world XV. -
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bayimports our main way of accumulating points for ages was ruthlessly exploiting broken field from turnover or, more regularly, bad kicks. (2003 called and wants its plan back!!)
These two things are pretty easy to cut off.
Both are related to dominant tackles too
A dominant tackle makes it easier for the second arriving player to pilfer. Also, a momentum killing tackle cuts down the attack options and forces the kick.
yep, i've said the same thing a bunch since Sunday. The reason the irish had so much ball is we never gave ourselves a chance to get it back
We also don't have a guy who is really good on teh ground.
We had one but wouldn't invest in him. Boshier.
By far the best jackler in the country.Yep Boshier was a pretty good jackler, but was perhaps a little weaker at other parts of his game. A 7 is not always the best jackler in teams these days, quite often it is midfield backs who are coming in second to the tackle.
One of the great fallacies is that Richie was alway a great jackler the last few years he was not usually the one getting the most turnovers in a game, his strength was he was a great 7 at all parts of game. -
Um I a like Rennie, but I don't know how to break this to you, he's actually coached the Wallabies as long as Foster has done the ABs, and it's not his first year, but second!
I not knocking him by any means (actually always been a Rennie fan) or saying he better or worse than Foster (never would) .@dan54 yes that was pointed out to me. Covid has blurred a lot as far as timeline. But you do admit Foster has been involved with the ABs for 9 years (per @Chris) and I don’t think he was a passenger.
There is one thing I can guarantee you, I (and I guessing anyone on this bored) would have a lot less knowledge of who should be coaching any teams than the people who appoint the coaches.
So we shouldn’t have opinions as they we don’t know what the f we are talking about. You agree with the NZRFU then because most on this board don’t. Most here would have preferred Rennie, Joseph and Brown or Razor. Certainly not status quo.
From an Aussie perspective Rennie has won nothing of importance in 2 years, had a 16% winning record last year, and again this year hasn't won Bledisloe or RC, but not blaming him in anyway.
Agree but I think they will be happy beating the Boks twice where we struggle both times. Bottom line he has a tough job ahead of him with less depth than we have (although some might debate this). I am willing to give him more time. Wonder what @NTA thinks.
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Honest answer tho: the last 2 games - actually 3 if you think about the performance against Japan - have been disappointing given where we were headed with a fit and firing Cooper, Kerevi, and Koroibete.
We got trophies from France, Boks, and Pumas. We got pooched from the Bled, but that is not unexpected, historically speaking. Everyone judging what we should do based on what Eales and co did do is a false economy. I mean, look at the AB teams being picked around that time. Historically not good.
The Wallaby team on EOYT is not as good a team as faced the Boks and Pumas. Then throw in a few injuries and whatnot, and a couple of HIAs, and suddenly our depth is exposed, particularly where we aren't flying in replacements.
However, I'd rather be where we are now than under Cheika. Don't think anyone will argue with that.
And TBH there is a lot still to go right in the next 2 years to RWC2023. In a lot of ways this is the gamble, but if we can start putting performances together and THEN get RWC2027 hosted, we can turn it around across the hierarchy.
Or piss it away up a wall. Whatevs.
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